KERS flywheel in the nose of the car?

[Conceptual]

With the flywheel version of the KERS system, would it be feasible to actually put the flywheel in the nose of the car?

I can imagine that it wouldn't be very difficult to have a quick-connect for the electrics, and I am wondering about what it may do for pitch reduction.

If a flywheel is in the nose, while laying horizontally, would it help to stabilize the up and down pitch movement?

Please discuss, and safety concerns are welcome too!

Chris

[sticky667]

if you wanted to slice the drivers' feet off!

i don't think it's realistic because it needs to be connected to the engine and the thought of a high power cord running along side the driver isn't very safe in the event of a accident either.

[Michiba]

With the flywheel version of the KERS system, would it be feasible to actually put the flywheel in the nose of the car?

I can imagine that it wouldn't be very difficult to have a quick-connect for the electrics, and I am wondering about what it may do for pitch reduction.

If a flywheel is in the nose, while laying horizontally, would it help to stabilize the up and down pitch movement?

Please discuss, and safety concerns are welcome too!

Chris

I like this idea. I was thinking if could even be possibly developed further into a type of active suspension where the moment of intertia could be adjusted during turns to counter roll perhaps. Anyone with an idea how this could work? I have very very very very limited physical knowledge on this.

[RacingManiac]

While it might work, what effect will the much additional polar moment of inertia do to handling? While teams are looking to move weight distribution forward, I though most ballast are still placed within the wheel base and down low on the floor. While Renault's mass damper was in the nose, it was noted to be a ~9 kg mass(which still seem like a lot), but a KERS flywheel will probably be in 15-20kg along with wiring and a motor to spin up the flywheel....

[Jersey Tom]

Why would it have to be in the nose?

I wouldn't do it anyway.

[Michiba]

While it might work, what effect will the much additional polar moment of inertia do to handling? While teams are looking to move weight distribution forward, I though most ballast are still placed within the wheel base and down low on the floor. While Renault's mass damper was in the nose, it was noted to be a ~9 kg mass(which still seem like a lot), but a KERS flywheel will probably be in 15-20kg along with wiring and a motor to spin up the flywheel....

The idea in my mind was to have the flywheel mounted in a way that was adjustable, so that the moment of inertia could be controlled. Would this be beneficial for any handling characteristics?

[Jersey Tom]

While it might work, what effect will the much additional polar moment of inertia do to handling? While teams are looking to move weight distribution forward, I though most ballast are still placed within the wheel base and down low on the floor. While Renault's mass damper was in the nose, it was noted to be a ~9 kg mass(which still seem like a lot), but a KERS flywheel will probably be in 15-20kg along with wiring and a motor to spin up the flywheel....

The idea in my mind was to have the flywheel mounted in a way that was adjustable, so that the moment of inertia could be controlled. Would this be beneficial for any handling characteristics?

Intuitively I would doubt it.

[Ian P.]

Moment of inertia is a physical property dependant on the geometry and mass of the object. I don't think you can (easily) adjust either of these two.
If you were to use a spinning flywheel remote from the power take-off point on either the engine or the gearbox, you would be looing at an electrical connection between the two. Effectively a mechanical battery. Interesting idea, but....sorry. Not practical for a modern F1 car.
That much weight high up in a current nose would be detrimental. You could build a low nose car, nothing wrong with that, but the reason all the cars have high noses is for aerodynamics.
The gyroscopic forces could be used to counter roll but in F1, the corner radii are so long it likely wouldn't do much.
The Williams system is essentially the sam thing but with the mechanical battery on the front of the engine and the motor/generator as a single component integrated with the spinning mass. Will be nice to see it in action....soon.

[Michiba]

thanks for the explanation... still trying to get my head around it though.

On a side note, if such a system were in place, theoretically would the gyroscopic forces be able to 'hold' the car in midair after it goes over a curb/bump momentarily? In practice, I assume the downforce would counter that if it were the case though.

[RacingManiac]

just as a side note to the "mechanical battery", Bosch's "off the shelf" system was made to take both the Li-Ion batt or the flywheel storage, and they run the flywheels in pair, precisely to cancel the gyroscopic effect...

[Jersey Tom]

thanks for the explanation... still trying to get my head around it though.

On a side note, if such a system were in place, theoretically would the gyroscopic forces be able to 'hold' the car in midair after it goes over a curb/bump momentarily? In practice, I assume the downforce would counter that if it were the case though.

Gyroscopic forces act against changes in angular momentum, ie if you were to rotate the thing about one or the other of its non-spinning axes. Doesn't care about linear displacement.

[DaveKillens]

thanks for the explanation... still trying to get my head around it though.

On a side note, if such a system were in place, theoretically would the gyroscopic forces be able to 'hold' the car in midair after it goes over a curb/bump momentarily? In practice, I assume the downforce would counter that if it were the case though.

If the gyrscopic forces were powerful, it would inhibit the chassis from rolling and pitching, but have zero efect if the motion was straight up and down.

One additional handicap is the added weight of the electrical cables. They would have to carry high amperage, which would make them large gauge. Such large gauge copper wire would add up in the weight department. For instance, 10 ga. copper is 31.8 feet per pound. So roughly, expect adding at least 2 kilos for wire if you intend to run it to the nose. Considering engineers sweat the fine details just to remove a gram here and there, and this makes for a difficult decision.

[Conceptual]

thanks for the explanation... still trying to get my head around it though.

On a side note, if such a system were in place, theoretically would the gyroscopic forces be able to 'hold' the car in midair after it goes over a curb/bump momentarily? In practice, I assume the downforce would counter that if it were the case though.

If the gyrscopic forces were powerful, it would inhibit the chassis from rolling and pitching, but have zero efect if the motion was straight up and down.

One additional handicap is the added weight of the electrical cables. They would have to carry high amperage, which would make them large gauge. Such large gauge copper wire would add up in the weight department. For instance, 10 ga. copper is 31.8 feet per pound. So roughly, expect adding at least 2 kilos for wire if you intend to run it to the nose. Considering engineers sweat the fine details just to remove a gram here and there, and this makes for a difficult decision.

Are you guessing at the amperage requirements of the Williams KERS system, or do you have some actual information leading to your dismissal of this idea? I have seen some rather large machinery that uses 480v 3phase, and run on 8 gague wire over a 150ft run.

I think for the 10 feet or so that would be needed, 10/3 aluminum MC cable should be fine.

Unless, of course, you actually have some amperage numbers from WIlliams?

Also: Why would it slice the drivers feet? It is a fully enclosed, vacuum sealed "disc" casing. Even in the event of catastrophic failure, I believe that Williams claims 100% containment.

The question is: Would it be advantageous to place the flywheel low and in the front (nosecone, or under the drivers feet) to control pitch? Or would its placement be necessitated by the pitch center of the car?

Thanks!

[Jersey Tom]

I really don't think it would do much to control pitch, to be honest.

[DM0407]

if you wanted to slice the drivers' feet off!

i don't think it's realistic because it needs to be connected to the engine and the thought of a high power cord running along side the driver isn't very safe in the event of a accident either.

Well, it looks like its designed to go right behind the drivers head...

http://www.williamshybridpower.com/f1/