Belgian GP 2009 - Spa Francorchamps

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:29 am

HA, I'd love to see you try to give me a "real life ass whupping"... I'd probly whoop your ass with fists the same way I do with logic & proof.

TAlk your --- all you want, you add nothing to the true discussion.

Nobody is talking about LH, or the color of anybody's skin, Kimi overtaking Truilli & Heidfeld illegally, has nothing to do with Jaime running into the back of Lewis... All that crap is just you trying to cloud the issue. Those of us who see what actually happened have provided Video proof and the exact lettering of the rules, what have the others provided? Nothing but their bullshit biased feelings that Kimi did nothing wrong.

Obviously the rules, nor the video nor those bullshit feelings mean anything to the FIA, especially when a red car is involved, so I'm done have proven that Kimi was in the wrong.
ISLAMATRON
 
Joined: 1 Oct 2008

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:39 am

^Image

All in good fun ISLAMATRON. Just kidding around, don't be so offensive. It's just a race.

and FOZ, hitting someone for having a big mouth makes you no better, and neither does puffing out ones chest in response. Kicking someones head in shows you're not the bigger man. Physical violence is a cowards way out of a situation that was never there.
Ray
 
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Location: Atlanta

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:41 am

Where do you get all those ugly baby pics from? are they you when younger?
ISLAMATRON
 
Joined: 1 Oct 2008

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:44 am

Yep. I'm all over google.
Ray
 
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Location: Atlanta

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:07 am

modbaraban wrote:PS: it seems so weird trying to explain such obvious things. I'm sorry for joining this stupid argument. #-o


Me too, Im outta here..let them bang their heads against a brick wall.
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC
ds.raikkonen
 
Joined: 4 Apr 2007
Location: India

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:05 am

Hi guys,

I think that the reason why no penalty was imposed on Kimi is two-fold.

First it has to do with the hairpin historically causing many accidents and a few major ones at the start. Running wide isn't unprecedented at all in that turn, even just to avoid chaos and it has been done one point or another in the career of every major driver, without penalties. Technically the grass strip is there to somewhat penalize those who run wide, but this also has to be mitigated by the pile-up effect that such a hairpin would cause should everyone decide to maintain positions between the white lines. The people in the front would pretty much get run down.

Second reason why Kimi wasn't penalized yet is because nobody launched a complaint. Most likely because he wasn't the only one doing the same thing. The fact that he got more out of it then others or that he gained positions is irrelevant. The only thing that would matter is that he left the racetrack. Trust me if it'd come to that half the teams would be losing points because Ferrari would argue it rightfully so.

Then we come to decide whether he intentionally left the race track or was left no choice. Judging by his onboard shots he was left with very few time to decide either way, but going wide looked less dangerous. Remember he was going wide and carrying more speed then the two guys in front of him. Stepping on the brakes would have been suicidal because the guys behind him would have had even less time to avoid him and nowhere to go.

I think this pretty much sums it up. The error was there, but it usually isn't penalized on this turn (and not just for Ferrari). The will to gain lead this way may or may not have been there, but nobody can say it either way and prove it. So let's leave it at that...
szlaszlo84
 
Joined: 18 Mar 2009

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:14 am

ISLAMATRON wrote:HA, I'd love to see you try to give me a "real life ass whupping"... I'd probly whoop your ass with fists the same way I do with logic & proof.

TAlk your --- all you want, you add nothing to the true discussion.

Nobody is talking about LH, or the color of anybody's skin, Kimi overtaking Truilli & Heidfeld illegally, has nothing to do with Jaime running into the back of Lewis... All that crap is just you trying to cloud the issue. Those of us who see what actually happened have provided Video proof and the exact lettering of the rules, what have the others provided? Nothing but their bullshit biased feelings that Kimi did nothing wrong.

Obviously the rules, nor the video nor those bullshit feelings mean anything to the FIA, especially when a red car is involved, so I'm done have proven that Kimi was in the wrong.

what happened to LH?
ernos5
 
Joined: 21 May 2008
Location: Flight Level 510

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:33 am

This is a difficult one I think. I don't think when Kimi made the decision to leave the track he was thinking "OK I'm going to gain some places from this" I think he was just trying to avoid a possible accident. In my opinion I think so Kimi was squeezed off the track, gained 3rd position after he rejoined the track.

I don't think he dessrves a penalty for that. But I think it does make us ask questions about the stewards, I think we need to see more consistency for them, and not jumping at any opportunity to penalise someone. I think they made the right decision.
Forever McLaren-Mercedes
lkocev
 
Joined: 25 Jan 2009

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:40 am

There has been some very good imput here despite what some are saying, I hope that maybe in future years that we see something added to the outer area to stop cars going full speed thru the area. That will mean cars can still go wide at turn 1 to avoid a crash but it would cost them postions as of course it should.
dave34m
 
Joined: 4 Aug 2008

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:32 am

dave34m wrote:There has been some very good imput here despite what some are saying, I hope that maybe in future years that we see something added to the outer area to stop cars going full speed thru the area. That will mean cars can still go wide at turn 1 to avoid a crash but it would cost them postions as of course it should.

infact those runoffs are so bumpy and dirty its really hard to go at full speed
just see Kimi's and Button's onbaord both struggling on that part
the only reason Kimi didnt loose anything is cos he pressed Kers when he got to the track and also Trulli and Kubica were slowing each other down

and to avoid controversies they could keep some Styrofoam chicanes there (just like monza first corner)
siskue2005
 
Joined: 11 May 2007

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:26 am

Ahh boy.. I don't know what to say anymore..

I WAS a Kimi fan in schumacher days! but I know injustice when I see it. What was so hard in Kimi stepping on the brakes for half a second?

Kimi PLANNED that maneuver from the beginning. It didn't turn out exactly as he intended but he had the general intention of going around the open asphalt to gain a few tenths if there was a pile up (there was none at the time).

He learned it from Massa! (Silverstone?) and he took it to another level.

GRRR! makes me mad! Somebody in another thread wondered what it would be like if Hamilton drives for Ferrari! I hope it really happens.. then we would see some steward heads exploding.
"You can't change what happened. But you can still change what will happen.
Sebastian Vettel"
PlatinumZealot
 
Joined: 12 Jun 2008

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:28 am

I am convinced the man intentionally went off. He is a 4 time winner at spa. He knows every square inch of that track; he knew that he could gain places there. Clearly in the video you see him take out his lock and accelerate off track.
Rules are rules and its in black and white for all to see. I am not passionate to any one of the teams, but you guys have to be straight up and objective.

And if anything most of you seem to forget the car has a brake pedal. He would not have crashed had he braked, nor would someone hit him from behind. Its all on tape.
He was not struggling at all, he was quite comfortable, and you can expect him to do something similar next year, though this time he might be in the wrong car to get away with it. :lol:
For Sure!!
ringo
 
Joined: 29 Mar 2009

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:31 am

modbaraban wrote:I saw a clear advantage in LH cutting that chicane, no so here.

Did Sutil get an advantage by passing Badoer on the outside? On the astroturf??? Nope. And he wasn't penalized either. Likewise Kimi disadvantaged himself as to the (longer) path and (less grippy) surface. It's just that the cars on track weren't fast, just like Luca while being overatken by Sutil.

Simple question here. What if there was a pile up in T1 and both Ferraris and Button who ran wide overtook the carnage ending up 1-2-3? Disqualify them all for not joining the crash?

PS: it seems so weird trying to explain such obvious things. I'm sorry for joining this stupid argument. #-o


lol I completely agree. The first corner of spa is notorious for bad accidents I think some leeway has to be given for a driver leaving the track here. At the point where kimi left the track it was 50/50 if kubica and co would collide and kimi had already slowed for the corner. If you consider how many more meters kimi covered I really doubt he gained an advantage, if he barged his way to stay on track - which was already three cars wide at this point and avoided an accident I think he would have been in a better position before au rouge
James
 
Joined: 3 Aug 2009

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:45 pm

I would repeat once again - stewards take notice only if drivers cut track.
Do I need to explain why?
Most drivers routinely leave track at the exits of the corners like final corner of Hockenheim or Nurburgring. Remember Austrian GP 2003? Every driver left track at the exit of first corner EVERY lap.
Nobody was ever penalized by overtaking on the outside. Normally you don't do it, because it's useless, and you harm your tyres.
timbo
 
Joined: 22 Oct 2007

Post Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:52 pm

timbo wrote:Remember Austrian GP 2003? Every driver left track at the exit of first corner EVERY lap.
Nobody was ever penalized by overtaking on the outside.


Yes I do remeber that race, and I also remember very clearly that the issue was raised in the drivers meeting before that very event and that it was unanimously agreed by the stewards and the drivers that an exception to the rule would be made in that corner. As far as I know no such exception was given for Spa 2009.
Roland Ehnström
 
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Location: Sollentuna, Sweden

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