Italian GP 2011 - Autodromo Nazionale Monza

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Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:21 pm

It seems to me that not so much the drivers, but their fans feel victimized.
And while I support your call for fairness, I can't accept the call to ruin a brilliant race just because your favourite has been penalized unfair at some point back in time. It's childish. It's not fairness, but vengeance.
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Dragonfly
 
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Bulgaria

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:24 pm

Dragonfly wrote:It seems to me that not so much the drivers, but their fans feel victimized.
And while I support your call for fairness, I can't accept the call to ruin a brilliant race just because your favourite has been penalized unfair at some point back in time. It's childish. It's not fairness, but vengeance.

Huh? In what way would the race have been ruined? Sure, Schumacher wouldn't have been in front of Hamilton and we wouldn't have seen them battling it out, we lose there... But at the same time, we get to see the McLarens chase down Alonso and Vettel, and we don't get the leader romp into the distance. There really isn't any question of "ruining" a brilliant race.

More so – there shouldn't be – if stewards were to make decisions based on what made the racing more interesting it wouldn't be a great sport to watch, would it? We'd have stewards penalising Vettel left right and centre, because you know... it makes the championship more exciting.
beelsebob
 
Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Location: Cupertino, California

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:13 pm

beelsebob wrote:Huh? In what way would the race have been ruined? Sure, Schumacher wouldn't have been in front of Hamilton and we wouldn't have seen them battling it out, we lose there... But at the same time, we get to see the McLarens chase down Alonso and Vettel, and we don't get the leader romp into the distance. There really isn't any question of "ruining" a brilliant race.


The Schu / Ham battle was shown on TV for a very long time and I luved it. I doubt that either Hamilton or Button could have followed Vettel, so we'd have had the same procession of the first 5 cars we've had so many times. A couple of seconds apart form each other without any battles.
Mandrake
 
Joined: 31 May 2010

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:17 pm

Mandrake wrote:
beelsebob wrote:Huh? In what way would the race have been ruined? Sure, Schumacher wouldn't have been in front of Hamilton and we wouldn't have seen them battling it out, we lose there... But at the same time, we get to see the McLarens chase down Alonso and Vettel, and we don't get the leader romp into the distance. There really isn't any question of "ruining" a brilliant race.


The Schu / Ham battle was shown on TV for a very long time and I luved it. I doubt that either Hamilton or Button could have followed Vettel, so we'd have had the same procession of the first 5 cars we've had so many times. A couple of seconds apart form each other without any battles.

Button was gaining (although only slightly) on Vettel, Hamilton once released was faster than Button... The variable we don't know is how much Vettel was managing the gap... But Hamilton later said he thought they had the pace to challenge red bull. I'm pretty sure we would have got an interesting race.
beelsebob
 
Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Location: Cupertino, California

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:24 pm

[...]
Last edited by Steven on Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed personal comments (and replying posts)
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Dragonfly
 
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Bulgaria

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:29 pm

Mandrake wrote:@ kominosm, I think the discussion is a bit pointless....

In the textbook example you'd say that a driver comes from behind, out of the slipstream and tries to overtake with the additional speed he has. He mostly tries to do it on the inside. The covering driver tries to block the inside line and hopes that the overtaker cannot take advantage round the outside. This would be one move from the defender then. If he blocked the inside, and then went back to block the outside too, it would be 2 moves where he tries to defend twice from the same driver.

In Monza, Lewis' topspeed was too low to overtake Schumacher....he could barely keep up in the slipstream. So for Schumacher it would have been enough to just drive on the inside and cover the line because Lewis would not even get alongside on the outside. But Schumacher didn't care and didn't really move (talking about the S/F straight) until getting close to turn 1.
This is why I think it wasn't investigated by the Stewards....Schumacher was plainly too fast, he didn't have to defend from Hamilton.

To come back to the weaving in Malaysia, it was another story. Lewis tried to shake off Petrov in the slipstream, because Petrov would have reovertaken Lewis. MSC however didn't even feel the need to defend into Parabolica because Lewis in the wake of the MGP car couldn't home in a single bit.

In the whole Monza race I cannot a recall a single situation where Lewis had to brake because of being blocked off twice (with the exemption of being driven onto the grass by MSC).


Your idea of what a defending move is incorrect. It does not involve braking from the defender. MS was completely wrong, and this is my last post in this thread.
I'll go with the driver steward and drivers and team principals.
They understanding of what 1 move is i what you should agree with. A lot of fans don't really familiarize themselves with the logic of what a defending move constitutes.
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ringo
 
Joined: 29 Mar 2009

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:39 pm

Does anyone know if the FOM race edit uses footage from qualifying? I've pointed out in the past that Jenson Button was shown in the video using the DRS up Beau Rivage, and if you look at the monza race edit at timeframe 1:38 Vettel is exiting the Rettifilio (1st) chicane and deploying DRS.
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raymondu999
 
Joined: 4 Feb 2010

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:58 pm

Probably just a glitch in the system like we saw from Alonso in Monaco.
ajdavison2
 
Joined: 8 Dec 2010

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:10 pm

If that's true; how much longer will it take before teams start using it as a loophole? Looks like one ripe for exploitation to me.
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raymondu999
 
Joined: 4 Feb 2010

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:13 pm

Yeah I was thinking that just as I posted that reply, before teams start remotely deploying DRS and saying 'just a glitch'
ajdavison2
 
Joined: 8 Dec 2010

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:00 pm

richard_leeds wrote:I’ve been away and come back to see a race thread dominated by Hamilton. Some things never change.

Anyway, back to topic - I’ve captured the timing data and uploaded it to the data thread.

viewtopic.php?p=278568#p278568

Thank you very much for that laddie. Any idea when the Post Event Stewards Decisions will be available? Their seems to be some conflicting reports in the press as to whether Vettel requested an inquiry into a certain car pushing him off the track.

On a separate note Silvia Bellot is one fine looking Steward and I would certainly enjoy scrutinizing the b-jezzus out of her! =P~
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1 ... ewards.pdf
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Mr Alcatraz
 
Joined: 18 May 2008
Location: San Diego Ca. USA

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:09 pm

Mr Alcatraz wrote:
richard_leeds wrote:I’ve been away and come back to see a race thread dominated by Hamilton. Some things never change.

Anyway, back to topic - I’ve captured the timing data and uploaded it to the data thread.

viewtopic.php?p=278568#p278568

Thank you very much for that laddie. Any idea when the Post Event Stewards Decisions will be available? Their seems to be some conflicting reports in the press as to whether Vettel requested an inquiry into a certain car pushing him off the track.

On a separate note Silvia Bellot is one fine looking Steward and I would certainly enjoy scrutinizing the b-jezzus out of her! =P~
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1 ... ewards.pdf

I have never seen a stewards decissions document actually make it to the FIA's web page.
beelsebob
 
Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Location: Cupertino, California

Post Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:55 pm

Bob, this is getting a little convoluted, and you have interjected information that was not solicited from you, however true it may be! The FIA conducts inquiries, The WMSC decides if and to what degree punishment is meted out, and that information makes its way to the press. The press cannot speak with any authority until a decision is made by the FIA. My inquiry was quite simple. I simply requested any information as to when to expect the FIA to make their report. I suspect it will go through the usual channels and at some point if there are any infractions or rule interpretations they will eventually make it to the public press. I still may not get the information I am looking for but it is probably the only chance that I will. This is something that I am not going to lose any sleep over.
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Mr Alcatraz
 
Joined: 18 May 2008
Location: San Diego Ca. USA

Post Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:44 am

Hey folks; there's something I don't get about Mark's lockup and consequentially retirement at the Parabolica. Surely he should already have had trouble with both fronts locking under braking for Curva Grande then? At Lesmos? And into Ascari? And surely the car should already have massively undeersteered in the Lesmos and Ascari? How did he not realize the wing had gone?
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raymondu999
 
Joined: 4 Feb 2010

Post Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:52 am

Ray, only a guess but I would say that Mark probably got a little impatient.
Perhaps if he had gotten loose to a greater degree earlier he would not have lost it in parabolic,
as he was soooooooo close to making it into the pit entrance. < end of theory> :wink:
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Mr Alcatraz
 
Joined: 18 May 2008
Location: San Diego Ca. USA

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