Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

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Post Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:40 pm

CjC wrote:Nando,

ok
my 'who knows' was just leaving the door open to the thought that the car may feature a raised chassis this season, Hamilton and the team say its a possible development for next season but by writing it off to the media for this year could be a bluff - who knows...

get me?

just so you know I'm all for copying Reb bulls rear bodywork and I'm not that interested in higher/stepped noses/ rasised chassis height development, I have posted my views on these many times

Ok now i understand it was written differently hence the reaction.

I thought you doubted Hamilton when he said they are looking into the concept of high nose/high chassis with this years car, which they are with the raised nose and wheel plates for visibility checks.

All clear on my part ;)
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Nando
 
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Post Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:18 pm

Sorted, just a simple misunderstanding
Is it me? or are a lot of people very anal about things in this forum?
CjC
 
Joined: 3 Jul 2012

Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:56 am

amc wrote:
n smikle wrote:However.. the other half of the story, the TYRE conditioning by the DRIVER... how you preheat the tyres, the heat treatment, the way you brake, how you accelerate, how you roll on the tyres. This has to be understood first by the drivers WITH the help of the engineers THEN the computer analysis, simulation and optimisation comes after... then that is given back to the driver for him to EXECUTE the "tyre activation and maintainance" process in the race.

You don't think that in their infinite wisdom Mclaren might have worked this out? All of the drivers are good enough to do exactly what the teams tell them to so I am sure no fault lies with the drivers.

I'm also not surprised Virgin mobile can't put the tyres on a car. They run a mobile phone network.

Seriously, McLaren do have a problem with the tyres, but it is not anything to do with communication or understanding. I think it is more likely to be something to do with their stiff suspension and general aero setup. They need to consider things like doing two slow quali 'out-laps' to allow tyres to stabilise in pressure and temperature.

The nose profile of the McLarens has been incredibly constant over the last few years - even from the MP4-23 before the new front wings. This is while Red Bull in particular have had ridiculously high noses. So McLaren have been pursuing a different philosophy to other teams, which has, at times, been successful for them. I think I heard Paddy Lowe say that in an interview at the start of the season.


You answered you own self above. That is why I posted what I posted. At this stage, it is not a numerical problem for Mclaren they have to go back to the old ways of doing things.. seee
the post below:

marcush. wrote:I think Mclarens form is indicative of the state and real value of simulation.
It all works well for a certain time but at some point you leave the boundaries in which your model shows meaningful correlation to the real world and whopp you are lost.
The big teams don´t allow themselves to go back to square one seat of the pants gut feeling adaptions they stick to their numbers and wonder why it does not corre´late anymore...We have seen this with all teams in recent years .
A good car does not suddenly turn sour ...and other teams did not make big steps as well....funny enough FI with mclaren engineering input seem to be alright performance wise..and on the way up..
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n smikle
 
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Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:44 am

I am newbie so I may be wrong but I have been following this thread since testing has began . Macca designed the car with a low nose from the start and were confident about it and its development . Since the 09 regs many teams had started to experiment the high nose design and there was a more prominent development of the underbody aero package with all cars . The MP4-25 was a relatively high nose design of Macca since the 09 regs but it was a disaster with they tried to fit the blown diffuser .

The Mp4-26 was designed with the octopus exhaust in mind so they had the rear downforce sorted out even with the lower nose height (lower air volume to underbody compared to other teams) The L shaped side pods also helped Macca maximise the then redbull copied exhaust philosophy . Now in MP4-27 the nose is more lowered and without the rear blowing the air volume to the underside is furthur compromised . But with the lowered nose of MP4-27 Macca has the perfect front and rear balance but lesser overall downforce comparatively . Realizing the mistake Macca has made the nose higher thus more air volume is sent to the underbody to compensate for the clarification of the floor after China .

Now with higher nose the rear downforce is almost at the same level with the bent floor (before clarification) ,but now the front end seems to be compromised and there is a loss in downforce to counter this Macca may have stiffened the already stiff front end (for better times in low speed corner) but the rear had to be softened to get better traction . This lead to understeer in entry (due to lower front downforce) and oversteer on exists after the car is unsettled in the mid corner bumps (too stiff front end) hence the overall balance is gone for a toss and so is driver confidence (Button) hence Macca is playing with setup after Spain and even the little updates are useless due to poor driver confidence .

Other think to worry about the Merc engine needs more cooling than others and the engine itself is relatively bigger so less packaging for other components .

Don't get me wrong but from the visual point of view the rear end of Macca looks like a pig i.e. the engine cover is bigger than other front runner team and the higher nose to underbody transition looks awkward (the place were the ice cutter sits). #-o

PS- I may be severly flawed in my analysis but I though why not give is a try :D
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rssh
 
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Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:34 am

gilgen wrote:
Coefficient wrote:
Owen.C93 wrote:Apparently they're aero testing at in Spain this weekend. We might get a look at the new package earlier than expected at least.


Yeah, hope some photos are leaked. I'm going to have a guess at a new gearbox casing, new front and rear wings, modified sidepods/exhaust housing, new floor and modified rear upright winglets.

If they do happen to reveal a new monocoque with a stepped nose (which I am 75% sure they won't) they may well have stuck a DDRS in it too. Why not if you're going to all that trouble.


A new monocoque would need a crash test, and there has been no word from the centre in Italy, that a monocoque has been tested. As regards a DDRS, as flogged to death before, this is only of benefit in quali and if passing in the DDRS zone. It hasnt done Merc much good, so it appears to be a blind alley.


DDRS isn't a blind alley. The problem mercedes has is they have to run more wing to get on terms with the other top teams downforce levels so they lose less drag when the DDRS is deployed. A car with higher downforce levels from the floor/diffuser etc would stand to gain more from DDRS than mercedes currently do.

Also, I'm pretty sure someone claiming to have a source mentioned new Mclaren crash tests a few pages back.
Last edited by Coefficient on Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Coefficient
 
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Location: North West - UK

Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:37 am

[

CjC wrote:Considering I'm quoting Lewis Hamilton right after the British GP I think he and certainly I am talking about a raised chassis height, which is too big of a challenge mid-season.

Clearly you have forgotten what you write even though it´s two posts above your respond.
CjC wrote:seems Hamilton has written the idea of a stepped nose off for this season, or has he? He did say we are looking into it with this car.. Who knows


Where can i find the word raised chassis in here?

I can see the word stepped nose which would lead me to believe both you and Hamilton are indeed talking about the raised nose first and foremost then of course the raised chassis is a given if you decide to build a car with that philosophy.

So again... when you say "who knows" i say we all know because of the raised nose and the test-plates they ran in practice.[/quote]

Yes, the list is long and distinguished but considering the minor tweaks they've made so far I was hoping and half expecting them to throw the kitchen sink at the mid season upgrades.
"I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it".
Coefficient
 
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Location: North West - UK

Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:53 am

As no-one seems to have mentioned it yet, perhaps it may be wise to return to a snowplough design under the nose? The turning vanes that are currently being used are very minimalistic compared to the additional amount of airflow being created by the higher nose?..? Afterall the team kind of admitted losing the snowplough was in order to trim front end drag/downforce to counter the loss of rear downforce from losing EBD.

The struggles that McLaren seem to have faced since China (Floor rule clarifcation) & Mugello (High Nose) is a lack of tyre warming at the front of the car, the higher nose was obviously introduced in order to drive more air under the nose to counter the loss ratio from the floor being altered. The problem seems to me a see-saw effect though as they have now had to stiffen the front suspension in order to keep within the desired operating window and soften the rear. With the tyres being such a key issue this year and having a compromised front end they can't cycle the tyres effectively. Lewis' more aggressive driving style means he gets more heat in the initial cycle and so isn't so badly compromised.
Williams & Ferrari have obviously realised that front tyre warming is an issue and so designed the scoopless brake ducts in order to keep the temperatures within the assembly more effectively. Yes McLaren have now got the adjustable front brake ducts but obviously didn't run them during qualifying in Silverstone due to little test time. Once again though it's a case of doing more for very little reward, when they finally get them working they will probably be great but wouldn't it have been simpler a few races ago to bring a scoopless brake housing and delay the adjustable ones?
Jenson going out with taped up scoops for his Q1 run just goes to prove how cycling the front tyres is important, he was around 1.6 secs up in the first 2 sectors before abandoning his lap due to the yellows and commented how much better that set of tyres were

Image

I hate to say it but it would seem that McLaren have simply been out developed, being part of FOTA's RRA could be partly to blame here with the 2 teams that seemingly have progressed the most since the start of the season having withdrawn from the organisation at the start of the year. I hope for McLaren's fans that the latest raft of upgrades work as well as they hope but I'm sure we will have a better indication when they complete the test next week.
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Matt Somers
 
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Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:56 am

Matt Somers wrote:I hate to say it but it would seem that McLaren have simply been out developed, being part of FOTA's RRA could be partly to blame here

They're still under the RRA. The RRA is binding outside of FOTA. You don't have to be a FOTA member to be under RRA.
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raymondu999
 
Joined: 4 Feb 2010

Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:32 am

raymondu999 wrote:
Matt Somers wrote:I hate to say it but it would seem that McLaren have simply been out developed, being part of FOTA's RRA could be partly to blame here

They're still under the RRA. The RRA is binding outside of FOTA. You don't have to be a FOTA member to be under RRA.


Yes I know that, but as we all know without being part of a regulation it isn't enforced and more importantly they don't have to be honest about it.....
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Matt Somers
 
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Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:57 am

Matt Somers wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:
Matt Somers wrote:I hate to say it but it would seem that McLaren have simply been out developed, being part of FOTA's RRA could be partly to blame here

They're still under the RRA. The RRA is binding outside of FOTA. You don't have to be a FOTA member to be under RRA.


Yes I know that, but as we all know without being part of a regulation it isn't enforced and more importantly they don't have to be honest about it.....



Yep, Red Bull and others have been overspending since the RRA was first laughably dreamt up.
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Coefficient
 
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Location: North West - UK

Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:30 pm

Matt Somers wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:
Matt Somers wrote:I hate to say it but it would seem that McLaren have simply been out developed, being part of FOTA's RRA could be partly to blame here

They're still under the RRA. The RRA is binding outside of FOTA. You don't have to be a FOTA member to be under RRA.


Yes I know that, but as we all know without being part of a regulation it isn't enforced and more importantly they don't have to be honest about it.....



You also assuming that Mclaren isnt overspending, which is laughable, if you can you will ofc overspend, atm there is no one actually checking and teams arent even allowing ppl to check, so RRA is just bullshit, teams that can will overspend to win.
Huntresa
 
Joined: 3 Dec 2011

Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:29 pm

Matt Somers wrote:As no-one seems to have mentioned it yet, perhaps it may be wise to return to a snowplough design under the nose? The turning vanes that are currently being used are very minimalistic compared to the additional amount of airflow being created by the higher nose?..? Afterall the team kind of admitted losing the snowplough was in order to trim front end drag/downforce to counter the loss of rear downforce from losing EBD.

With the tyres being such a key issue this year and having a compromised front end they can't cycle the tyres effectively. Lewis' more aggressive driving style means he gets more heat in the initial cycle and so isn't so badly compromised.
Williams & Ferrari have obviously realised that front tyre warming is an issue and so designed the scoopless brake ducts in order to keep the temperatures within the assembly more effectively. Yes McLaren have now got the adjustable front brake ducts but obviously didn't run them during qualifying in Silverstone due to little test time. Once again though it's a case of doing more for very little reward, when they finally get them working they will probably be great but wouldn't it have been simpler a few races ago to bring a scoopless brake housing and delay the adjustable ones?
Jenson going out with taped up scoops for his Q1 run just goes to prove how cycling the front tyres is important, he was around 1.6 secs up in the first 2 sectors before abandoning his lap due to the yellows and commented how much better that set of tyres were


I hate to say it but it would seem that McLaren have simply been out developed, being part of FOTA's RRA could be partly to blame here with the 2 teams that seemingly have progressed the most since the start of the season having withdrawn from the organisation at the start of the year. I hope for McLaren's fans that the latest raft of upgrades work as well as they hope but I'm sure we will have a better indication when they complete the test next week.


I sort of agree with this.

At least my why not take the car back to a Melbourne-spec front end and see how Button manages with that. The way tyres are so fundamental this year I almost think that they could gain more time by giving JB back the confidence to push and allowing him to work the tyres just right, than they could by any other upgrade they might try...of course that doesn't help Lewis as much...or maybe it would...I think that unless their next upgrade package really works for them and if they want to win either championship then they need to through caution to the wall and try something drastic, after all what do they have to lose? They're 4th in the WCC at the moment!!
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adrianjordan
 
Joined: 28 Feb 2010

Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:33 pm

rssh wrote:I am newbie so I may be wrong but I have been following this thread since testing has began . Macca designed the car with a low nose from the start and were confident about it and its development . Since the 09 regs many teams had started to experiment the high nose design and there was a more prominent development of the underbody aero package with all cars . The MP4-25 was a relatively high nose design of Macca since the 09 regs but it was a disaster with they tried to fit the blown diffuser .

The Mp4-26 was designed with the octopus exhaust in mind so they had the rear downforce sorted out even with the lower nose height (lower air volume to underbody compared to other teams) The L shaped side pods also helped Macca maximise the then redbull copied exhaust philosophy . Now in MP4-27 the nose is more lowered and without the rear blowing the air volume to the underside is furthur compromised . But with the lowered nose of MP4-27 Macca has the perfect front and rear balance but lesser overall downforce comparatively . Realizing the mistake Macca has made the nose higher thus more air volume is sent to the underbody to compensate for the clarification of the floor after China .

Now with higher nose the rear downforce is almost at the same level with the bent floor (before clarification) ,but now the front end seems to be compromised and there is a loss in downforce to counter this Macca may have stiffened the already stiff front end (for better times in low speed corner) but the rear had to be softened to get better traction . This lead to understeer in entry (due to lower front downforce) and oversteer on exists after the car is unsettled in the mid corner bumps (too stiff front end) hence the overall balance is gone for a toss and so is driver confidence (Button) hence Macca is playing with setup after Spain and even the little updates are useless due to poor driver confidence .

Other think to worry about the Merc engine needs more cooling than others and the engine itself is relatively bigger so less packaging for other components .

Don't get me wrong but from the visual point of view the rear end of Macca looks like a pig i.e. the engine cover is bigger than other front runner team and the higher nose to underbody transition looks awkward (the place were the ice cutter sits). #-o

PS- I may be severly flawed in my analysis but I though why not give is a try :D



I disagree with this. This year front downforce is not the problem. You see those wings? Most front wings this year are based on 2011 wings. 2011 wings produce enough downforce to balance a 2011 blown rear diffuser. 2012 wings are actually more than capable of making any required front downforce. You don't need a sloping nose, you don't need a snow plow and certainly for teams like Mercedes, you don't need cascades! check their Silverstone front wing it is very interesting. Basically, front downforce is not a problem this year.

Most of the updates were have seen this year on the car, especially on the front wings, are aimed at conditioning air to the REAR of the car. Again, see the slim brake ducts (Williams), Cascade removal (MErc), Split guide vanes, reworked front wing fences, Snow plow removal, Side strakes under the mirrors. etc. The evidence is strong that the real issue this year is getting downforce to the rear of the car.

And even still, it was already said that the low chassis of the mclaren makes not much of a difference in front downforce, but rear downforce? Just ask Jenson Button if he has enough. 8)

Mclaren may need the higher chassis more than ever now, because they need every advantage they can get to win this Championship.
"I was blessed with the ability to understand how cars move," he explains. "You know how in 'The Matrix,' he can see the matrix? When I'm driving, I see the lines."
n smikle
 
Joined: 12 Jun 2008

Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:04 pm

paddy lowe just confirmed they have struggled to nail the setup recently.
Sometimes you arrive at the track and all your wonderful work at home does not turn into results...More so..a weekend with lots of rain and a dry race shows how good your sims are in reality....for Mclaren it reads:bad prediction and no chance for the engineers to craft a modified setup onto it due to lack of dry running ....or something along these lines.
No seriously :Mclaren was committed to a flat out rain programme ,not even the intermediates did work ...so no wonder both drivers were lost as sundays race was bone dry.
Wonder why you elect to run such a heavily compromised setup instead biting the bullet relegating the cars to the pitlane and start on a bonafide dry setup.Silverstone is a place with plenty of overtaking possibilities .it could not have been worse from a results standpoint but much more positive for the drivers team and fans to have a fightback ...instead of this pathetic fall from grace..
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Post Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:07 pm

Was talking about that just before the race, would have been interesting to see what a car that had been set up for a dry perfectly for a dry race could of done.
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