P.U.R.E Appointment

[xpensive]

The most boooring thing with all these self-appointed "web-engineers", is that they can never crack an original number on their own, but plenty of copy'n paste, catchwords, links and references....zzzz....

[pgfpro]

The most boooring thing with all these self-appointed "web-engineers", is that they can never crack an original number on their own, but plenty of copy'n paste, catchwords, links and references....zzzz....

Are we still talking about Engine Delta P or something else. LOL

xpensive you said (Heat recovery without a turbo? Well, there's still about one third of the fuel's energy leaving though the xhaust so I guess they have to think of something, perhaps a turbo without the compressor-part?)

the "compressor-part" if you take the "compressor part" off or what normal people call the compressor your just left with a turbine. So we hook the turbine up to the engine or what you would probably call the "turbine part" now turbo's engineers use another fancy word called "turbine expansion ratio" the higher the number the more "exhaust back pressure" not to much of a fancy word, anyway... say your expansion ratio is around 1.72 this would be a small turbine housing with a small exhaust turbine wheel like a 58mm with a 0.70 A/R. Now say that at 7000rpm on a 1.6L running 10psig at the intake you have would have 14psig worth of exhaust back pressure. You would have around -4 Engine Delta P. Now for the sake of argument lets take away the compressor-part of the turbo. So no boost is being produced. So its 0 psig intake pressure. The back pressure stays the same because of the damming effect of the turbine, maybe a little less because the compressor load is gone now.
But as you can see the Engine Delta P will has became a lot worse around a -13psig number. This is not good for the VE of the engine. It kills the flow thru the engine. Theres a cost to using a turbine but it can be made up on the compressor side if so used.

Keep in mind this was off the top of my head and some engines do run at 0 or even plus numbers of Engine Delta P.

On my own personal turbo compound setup I measure around a -1 psig
Oh I kinda forgot this part, I do data log primary turbo and secondary turbo exhaust pressures and Engine Delta P. and about twenty other different inputs.

[xpensive]

"So its 0 intake pressure"? Oh my, that's vacuum, I had no idea, are you sure about this?

[Tommy Cookers]

With the present economic outlook (in Europe) why not graft the '2014' controlled fuel rate technology onto the current V8 engines ?

This is cheap and relatively easy, and would give clear benefits, limiting power by keeping rpm down and showing innovation and progress, and more flexibility in track technique.
...... basically, just redesign the camshafts (they did this for the current rpm limit)

The fuelling rules could be progressed yearly
(MotoGP has done this with limits on fuel quantity, fuelling restrictions inherently incentivise genuine KERS)

What's not to like ? ...... everybody's a winner !

[Tommy Cookers]

HERS without a turbo ?

How ??

Heat recovery without a turbo? Well, there's still about one third of the fuel's energy leaving though the xhaust so I guess they have to think of something, perhaps a turbo without the compressor-part?

BMW favours steam made from exhaust heat (combined with IC engine cycle)

Catalytic dissociation of fuel into combustible gas recovers heat and is more 21st century (see my post on the TERS thread ?)

recovery via an exhaust turbine in a N/A engine would allow a raised CR with the reduced VE (similar to Prius etc 'synthetic Atkinson cycle')
electrical load would need modulation to maintain constant back pressure

add a (small) electrically driven compressor to restore VE ?

[Cold Fussion]

"So its 0 intake pressure"? Oh my, that's vacuum, I had no idea, are you sure about this?

I'm pretty sure you realised he is talking in gauge pressure.

[xpensive]

BMW favours steam (combined with our IC engine cycle)
...

They do indeed and the technology is interesting, but is it practical for F1 TC?

But this is getting completely OT.

I believe that the termination, temporary or not, of PURE's activities is down to the 2014 engine-rules, one way or the other.

[pgfpro]

"So its 0 intake pressure"? Oh my, that's vacuum, I had no idea, are you sure about this?

0 psig I fix it for ya web engineer police

[pgfpro]

HERS without a turbo ?

How ??

Heat recovery without a turbo? Well, there's still about one third of the fuel's energy leaving though the xhaust so I guess they have to think of something, perhaps a turbo without the compressor-part?

BMW favours steam made from exhaust heat (combined with IC engine cycle)

Catalytic dissociation of fuel into combustible gas recovers heat and is more 21st century (see my post on the TERS thread ?)

recovery via an exhaust turbine in a N/A engine would allow a raised CR with the reduced VE (similar to Prius etc 'synthetic Atkinson cycle')
electrical load would need modulation to maintain constant back pressure

add a (small) electrically driven compressor to restore VE ?

Is there a electric compressor that can produce the flow numbers needed? If so how many kW would take for it to produce 50+ lbs./min of air flow?

Tom, do you have a link on the BMW steam from exhaust heat where I could read up on this?

[Pierce89]

The cost of the V6s are rumoured to cost up to €30m a season, the current cost of the V8s are €8m a season. I think with the economic climate the V6s are stupid, id just get the V8s a updated KERS and HERS with the new ECU for a budget of €12m would be much more acceptable.

These V8s are vastly reliable, however id increase the RPM limit to 19,000 again just to add that extra spice into the mix, means there could be more engine penalties. If the KERS and HERS generated up to say 20 seconds of button activation per lap with 200kW of power, id be happy to add this in as well.

However i can also see a tightening of the fuel amounts per car per weekend reduced from almost 300litres to 250litres per car and a homologated fuel tank size come in with a tightening of the exhaust regulations to exclude chambers and hermoltoz technology as well.

The V8s i feel will be with us until 2015 or 2016 at the earliest.

Is that cost for the full allotment of engines for the season, or is it per engine?

The above numbers were for a full season.

[Tommy Cookers]

BMW Turbosteamer link is in old thread title HERS for F1
(in the original post, by J - Raid on Jun 12 2009)

I'm so old I don't know the proper way to send out the link !


IMO the above harvests about 60% of the total waste (heat), with an efficiency of about 25%, hence adds 15% economy

IMO a recovery turbine is about 75% 'efficient' at what it does, but much of the heat is inaccessible to it
(otherwise turbo engines would be twice as efficient, and BMW wouldn't have the above)

[ESPImperium]

The cost of the V6s are rumoured to cost up to €30m a season, the current cost of the V8s are €8m a season. I think with the economic climate the V6s are stupid, id just get the V8s a updated KERS and HERS with the new ECU for a budget of €12m would be much more acceptable.

These V8s are vastly reliable, however id increase the RPM limit to 19,000 again just to add that extra spice into the mix, means there could be more engine penalties. If the KERS and HERS generated up to say 20 seconds of button activation per lap with 200kW of power, id be happy to add this in as well.

However i can also see a tightening of the fuel amounts per car per weekend reduced from almost 300litres to 250litres per car and a homologated fuel tank size come in with a tightening of the exhaust regulations to exclude chambers and hermoltoz technology as well.

The V8s i feel will be with us until 2015 or 2016 at the earliest.

Is that cost for the full allotment of engines for the season, or is it per engine?

The above numbers were for a full season.

Yup, numbers are for whole season for a single team, and that includes demo engines for their demo cars as well, so 16 engines per season for the teams two cars and a new capping of 5 engines for testing with another 3 for demo purposes.

Ive also thought of 2 other concepts id use with the V8s, id introduce the fixed fuel flow regulator, but allow the engine builders 12 months from 2014 to 2015 to do what ever they wanted to thir power plants to increase power, efficiency or life span asa well.

And remember the 2014 rules will see the gearbox rules change as well. 4 boxes per year and 8 speed gearboxes as well, and nominated gear sets reduced as well.

[garrett]

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news/2012/08/PURE-Stillstand_fuer_Whitmarsh_keine_Ueberraschung_12080906.html

German "motorsport total" quotes Martin Whitmarsh saying the shutdown at PURE is no surprise for him. Furthermore he agrees with Haug and Caubet there will be three engine suppliers in 2014 and that will be enough to supply all teams, although he doubts there will be 12 teams in 2014. Apparently, no one reckons with Cosworth any more.

Whitmarsh also said he doesn´t want a mixed V6/V8-year in 2014.

But, if PURE should be flat broke, so why The Company does not acquire the so far-results of PURE for their own purpose?

[WilliamsF1]

Were there any connection between Sauber F1 and PURE?

There cut section car had pure motorsport on the roll bar.