Less torque to reduce tyre wear?

[jz11]

red300zx99, did you read my post as a whole or you just comment on single sentences without context?

I described the same thing you did, and even went further, to conclude that the gain was so marginal that it simply wasn't worth the effort and risk of DSQ, simply because there is next to no gain from having the ability to maybe, in quite narrow window of opportunity during the race, be able to come out of that corner with accelerator at 100% instead of 80% with the normal mapping

on top of that, every team is custom mapping their engines to tailor the setup for the current race, and I can bet they are going outside that 2% (that is now specified by the rules) margin here and there, so maybe RB didn't want to gain anything there really, they just pushed the FIA to clarify those regulations, because they are able to overcome those balance issues (that would be fixed by custom mapping) in other ways, basically - if FIA didn't react to this issue - it's fine, they will continue exploring/exploiting it, but they did, so RB might have though, ok, this changes little for us, but maybe it will hurt the competition more

[red300zx99]

red300zx99, did you read my post as a whole or you just comment on single sentences without context?

Sorry, edited.

Some of the stuff you said is somewhat confusing. Low gear(5-7)...maybe a typo, shouldn't it be high gears(5-7)? Low gear to me is 1-3, gears used in low speed. Saying high gear instead changes the meaning for me, your 'normal accelration' becomes mid-high speed exits...I was reading your 'normal acceleration' to mean low speed traction limited stuff.

[atanatizante]

So regarding the new rules on engine maps 6,000 RPM is below the idle point, so this effectively applies to the entire span of the torque curve. Sounds like RBR was changing from event-to-event to minimize wheel-spin coming out of turns (and possibly overall for races where it was expected to be wet). May also help with tire deg on the rears. This sounds more like a creative interpretation of the rule than a cheat/exploit. So now the question is, does the Reference Map represent a single averaged torque curve from those 4 events or are High & Low levels set based on the max/min from each of the 4 maps. If the latter, are the High/Low variances in the rule based on the High, Low, or Average from those curves?

[jz11]

red300zx99, did you read my post as a whole or you just comment on single sentences without context?

Sorry, edited.

Some of the stuff you said is somewhat confusing. Low gear(5-7)...maybe a typo, shouldn't it be high gears(5-7)? Low gear to me is 1-3, gears used in low speed. Saying high gear instead changes the meaning for me, your 'normal accelration' becomes mid-high speed exits...I was reading your 'normal acceleration' to mean low speed traction limited stuff.

oh, I meant low gear ratio, there seems be always a confusion about that, that is why I specified gear numbers in the brackets

[Raptor22]

Altering the torque is fairly simple with a pneumatic valve train. simply drop the exhaust valve for a microsecond and bleed off cyclinder pressure.

Please expand.... I thought the pneumatic system dealt with valve closing.

Brian

i.e. keep the exhaust valve open longer on the compression stroke.
Apply a pressure spike to the pneumatic chamber on the valve actuating gear eithe directly with gas pressure or via a solenoid.

However as Renault have explained they are opting instead for playing with ignition timing.

Renault played around with electro hydraulic valve gear some years ago but I'm not sure if it was ever raced.

[Dragonfly]

Raptor22
Would you please describe in more detail how the exhaust valve is held open longer?

[jz11]

sometimes it helps to read the regulations

5.9 Variable geometry systems:
5.9.1 Variable geometry inlet systems are not permitted.
5.9.2 Variable geometry exhaust systems are not permitted.
5.9.3 Variable valve timing and variable valve lift systems are not permitted.

[Raptor22]

Raptor22
Would you please describe in more detail how the exhaust valve is held open longer?

As explained theres, plenty of mechanisms. Some of the most common is a magnetically controlled system:

Here's a cut and paste of how the Nissan / Renault systems works on the high performance Infinity range.

"Continuously Variable Valve Timing Control System (CVTCS)

On select vehicles, CVTCS controls both intake and

exhaust valve timing.

With the more advanced CVTCS, a computer continuously monitors and adjusts valve timing to provide optimum performance and efficiency in all operating conditions, not just two.

On most vehicles, CVTCS controls intake valve timing only. However, on selected high-performance vehicles, it also applies to exhaust valve timing.

Intake valve timing control feeds more air in at the perfect moment of combustion depending on driving status.
Exhaust valve timing control magnetically controls cam phase continuously with the fixed operating angle of the exhaust valve. The ECM receives signals such as crankshaft position, camshaft position, engine speed, and engine oil temperature. Then, the ECM sends ON/OFF pulse duty signals to the exhaust valve timing control magnet retarder depending on driving status. This makes it possible to control the shut/open timing of the exhaust valve to increase the engine torque and output in a range of high engine speed.
If the CVTCS malfunctions, the Engine Control Module (ECM) enters a fail-safe mode."

[jz11]

CVTCS is the same as VVT-i, VTEC, VANOS, it has control over timing, more precise, with degrees of motion (unlike VTEC for instance), but it has no control over lift/duration

BMW's Valvetronic and Fiats Multiair systems on the other hand can do what you're talking about, but they bare no relevance to current F1 engines as far as I know

[Dragonfly]

sometimes it helps to read the regulations

5.9 Variable geometry systems:
5.9.1 Variable geometry inlet systems are not permitted.
5.9.2 Variable geometry exhaust systems are not permitted.
5.9.3 Variable valve timing and variable valve lift systems are not permitted.

Yeah, I asked the question to Raptor22, because I know with current engines it's forbidden. And we are talking about the current Renault engine. So all theoretical possibilities should be left aside.

[strad]

Some of the most common is a magnetically controlled system:

Raptor..You talking about the ill fated Renault attempt that was deemed too heavy and cumbersome and that they couldn't get to work at these RPMs?

[CHT]

I am just curious if RBR 3 stopper at Hungary has got something to do with higher tyre degradation caused by the new engine mapping.

[raymondu999]

I think it was just a gamble really, in Vettel's case. If things didn't work out, he wouldn't lose a slot anyways, and if things did work out (and the other cars hit the cliff) then he'd have won the race.

In Webber's case apparently he had a locked diff... which meant the inner rear was always getting wheelspin on exit traction. He probably could've been a bit softer on the power and so allowed less wheelspin, but that would've made him VERY slow on exits.

[Raptor22]

sometimes it helps to read the regulations

5.9 Variable geometry systems:
5.9.1 Variable geometry inlet systems are not permitted.
5.9.2 Variable geometry exhaust systems are not permitted.
5.9.3 Variable valve timing and variable valve lift systems are not permitted.

Yeah, I asked the question to Raptor22, because I know with current engines it's forbidden. And we are talking about the current Renault engine. So all theoretical possibilities should be left aside.

Variable valve timing forbidden..?? Since when. Variable length inlet trumpets are forbidden I know, but Variable Valve timing?
From thedescriptions of what Renault were doing with RedBull around diffuser blowing it would infer that there has to be a degree of VVT going on as well. Are you saying its banned on the exhaust valve train or completley. If completley I can;t see how thse engines would get to 18,000rpm and still run at 5000-6000

Anyway the question was how to go about exhaust valve timing. I posted theoretical methods to achieve that. In an earlier post I said Renault confirmed that they are playing with ignition timing to alter torque demand for a given rpm range. that already takes the exhaust valvetiming out of the equation.
But if you're interested in the theoretical methods they're pretty much everywhere in road cars these days

[Dragonfly]

Did you read the quote by jz11?