McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Lycoming
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Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 22:58

Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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I never said it worked well.

Clearly their testing data tells them that they would be faster with it than without it.

Alternatively, though somewhat less rigorously, "does indeed work" means scrapping with Williams instead of Marussia.

Owen.C93
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Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 17:52

Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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321apex wrote:
Lycoming wrote:They tested back-to-back with and without the butterflies at the Bahrain test and they're still on the car, so it would seem that their data suggests that it does indeed work.
Can you define precisely the meaning of "does indeed work" in the context of finishing a race out of points and qualifying out of top 10.
As in it works better than without them...
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Thunder
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Well they tested the Car without the Butterfly Suspension for the First Time ever in Bahrain. As i said back then, IF they found out that the Car is better without it, expect them to run an according Setup at Barcelona the earliest. New Parts need Time to develop and manufacture.
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basti313
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Joined: 22 Feb 2014, 14:49

Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Dipesh1995 wrote:
beelsebob wrote: I'm confident that they have the exact same issue this year as they had last year. I think any lack of drivability they had last year was down to a fundamental downforce defect.
Last year's car did have a decent amount of downforce but it was inconsistent downforce which made the car unpredictable and difficult to drive therefore making the car not very usable. Whitmarsh did say that the car was too "peaky" (http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12479 ... ens-mp4-28).
However, with this year's car, the downforce on the car is consistent therefore the car has good drivability but the problem is that the car doesn't have enough downforce.
Good drivability and a robust downforce level goes down to a good interconnected suspension.
In my point of view this was the big problem last year: The good MP4-27 with its hard suspension was on its limit, so they needed to build a new car...MP4-28: More rake, Fric to get ground clearance and softer suspension.
This soft suspension compromises the "old" aero layout and without a really good Fric system it is not working. But like Ferrari they had big problems with the new front suspension...so they did not get it set up in a right way and, thus they had problems to develop the Fric system.

Now the MP4-29: Again a new front suspension, so again new setup work on the Fric, whereas contenders like Force India or Williams have two full seasons on a rather similar interconnected suspension. This makes the great McLaren team only as good as the midfielders.

Additionally they have the fuel problem: Ferrari found more than a second just by their new fuel...Redbull announces 4tenth...so in reality also a second. When will McLaren get a new, further developed fuel?
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Coefficient
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Lycoming wrote:They tested back-to-back with and without the butterflies at the Bahrain test and they're still on the car, so it would seem that their data suggests that it does indeed work.

I think a possible reason they are struggling is related to the Butterfly suspension. It's reasonable to think that they get good numbers from it in a constant speed run in testing because they keep putting it on the car but when they use it in anger it maybe gives inconsistent results. Perhaps they are persevering with it in the hope they have a Eureka moment and get it to work properly and suddenly climb up the competitive order.

In my experience, things like this tend to get lots of resources thrown at them to no avail and to my mind it's going to be incosistent because it's a suspension component.

I think they should abandon it and find ways of making their basic package better. Low drag downforce seems to be a real must this year to me.
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bauc
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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As per Autosport - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113601 - Mclaren has managed to find some downforce back in the factory and they expect this group of updates to bring the MP4-29 back in the fight with the teams behind the Mercs. But they also add that the process of the brining the updates to take few races so we will probably won't see any huge improvement of the pace of the MP4-29 at the Barcelona track but some improvement will be welcomed after all in order to bring the season back on track.
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megasyxx
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Joined: 24 Oct 2010, 21:40

Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Well, but they did do good during the season opener....maybe they were just simply outdeveloped by some teams or their bits and pieces just put them backwards....

basti313
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megasyxx wrote:Well, but they did do good during the season opener....maybe they were just simply outdeveloped by some teams or their bits and pieces just put them backwards....
I refer to my last post: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 48#p507248
If you just need traction from slow corners everything is ok like it was in Melbourne. If you have to accelerate out of fast corners you need well working interconnected suspension.
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Del Boy
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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bauc wrote:As per Autosport - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113601 - Mclaren has managed to find some downforce back in the factory and they expect this group of updates to bring the MP4-29 back in the fight with the teams behind the Mercs. But they also add that the process of the brining the updates to take few races so we will probably won't see any huge improvement of the pace of the MP4-29 at the Barcelona track but some improvement will be welcomed after all in order to bring the season back on track.
If this is to be believed 100% (I'm sceptical because it seems every race they're about to unlock the cars potential) do we believe the increase in DF is with or without the butterfly's.
If the butterfly's are removed I assume the whole rear has to be changed to a more conventional coke bottle design. Which is possible thanks to the Mercedes engine. This solution would take the longest to manufacture!
Or
If the butterfly is part of this extra downforce then only the side pods and floor would need manufacturing and be a shorter lead time.

trinidefender
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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basti313 wrote:
megasyxx wrote:Well, but they did do good during the season opener....maybe they were just simply outdeveloped by some teams or their bits and pieces just put them backwards....
I refer to my last post: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 48#p507248
If you just need traction from slow corners everything is ok like it was in Melbourne. If you have to accelerate out of fast corners you need well working interconnected suspension.
Are you saying that McLaren doesn't have interconnected suspension? Or are you trying to say that it doesn't work well? Either way can you provide some evidence to back up your claims.

Next, why is it that your interconnected suspension has to be great for fast corners? Personally I would think good rear downforce is what is required for accelerating out of fast corners.

bill shoe
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Don't know about this year, but last year's McLaren had rather severe anti-dive geometry in the front suspension. This implies they were not using a FRIC suspension, or at least were doing less with it than other teams. Notice how mild and straight the Mercedes suspension geometry is? They twiddle the FRIC rather than the control arms.

Lazy
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As I understand it, the butterflys leak air at high speed, this was touted as an advantage as it meant less drag on the straight. It might also mean that they are not so efficient in high speed corners.

It seems to me their purpose is for slow/medium speed corners, high speed DF will have to come from somewhere else.

It wouldn't surprise me if they ran without them in high speed DF circuits like Catalunya.

basti313
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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trinidefender wrote:
basti313 wrote:
megasyxx wrote:Well, but they did do good during the season opener....maybe they were just simply outdeveloped by some teams or their bits and pieces just put them backwards....
I refer to my last post: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 48#p507248
If you just need traction from slow corners everything is ok like it was in Melbourne. If you have to accelerate out of fast corners you need well working interconnected suspension.
Are you saying that McLaren doesn't have interconnected suspension?
Even Marussia has interconnected suspension, so it would be stupid to claim McLaren has none...
They never really gave the reason why the MP4-27 could not be developed further. For me it is rather clear, that this has to do with the stiff suspension the MP4-27 was build around. They had to go to softer interconnected suspension like every other team.
trinidefender wrote: Or are you trying to say that it doesn't work well?
For Ferrari it took half a season to get the front axle working so well that they could learn anything from the car. For Merc it took three years to get the interconnected suspension working. So there can be not much doubt, that the McLaren interconnected suspension is at the beginning of its development as they never got the setup well last year.
And as stated: In Melbourne the McLarens were good. As soon they had to cope with fast corners and accelerating out of fast corners it all got worse. This is clear evidence for a not working interconnected suspension.
trinidefender wrote: Either way can you provide some evidence to back up your claims.
It is interesting, that you ask for evidence for the rather clear suspension change and its problems while this thread is spoiled by wild speculations round butterflys. :wink:
trinidefender wrote: Next, why is it that your interconnected suspension has to be great for fast corners? Personally I would think good rear downforce is what is required for accelerating out of fast corners.
The main function of the interconnected suspension is pushing the front up when the rear is pushed down. This helps you to run lower ground clearance because you gain space at the splitter and front wing.
This lower ground clearance gives you pure downforce. Additionally you need roll stiffness in fast corners to keep the diffusor working which is also provided by the interconnected suspension.
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AnthonyG
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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basti313 wrote:
trinidefender wrote: Or are you trying to say that it doesn't work well?
For Ferrari it took half a season to get the front axle working so well that they could learn anything from the car. For Merc it took three years to get the interconnected suspension working. So there can be not much doubt, that the McLaren interconnected suspension is at the beginning of its development as they never got the setup well last year.
And as stated: In Melbourne the McLarens were good. As soon they had to cope with fast corners and accelerating out of fast corners it all got worse. This is clear evidence for a not working interconnected suspension.
.
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adrianjordan
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Del Boy wrote:If this is to be believed 100% (I'm sceptical because it seems every race they're about to unlock the cars potential) do we believe the increase in DF is with or without the butterfly's.
If the butterfly's are removed I assume the whole rear has to be changed to a more conventional coke bottle design. Which is possible thanks to the Mercedes engine. This solution would take the longest to manufacture!
That's what I think. They've suddenly found this extra downforce shortly after first testing the car without the butterfly suspension. I think they found a solution relating to that which gives them a lot more downforce.

I could be wrong!! (And probably am)
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