2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
komninosm
komninosm
0
Joined: 05 Apr 2009, 18:41
Location: Macedonia

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

basti313 wrote:
Gaara wrote:If Mercedes thought ROS would win by pitting at the end, why they didn't pit Lewis too who was in front of him?
Rosberg did not win due to traffic. It had nothing to do with strategy. He would not have one with Ham's strategy and Ham would not have one with Rosberg's strategy. To only thing one can discuss is what would have happend if both would have been on Rosberg's strategy...this is difficult: No spin for Vettel, Ham behind Ros, Alo pitting later...
What Gaara is saying is correct. Hamilton did not have to copy Rosberg's strategy. Simply at that point where he was ahead of Rosberg on mediums and Rosberg pitted, then came out behind traffic, then Hamilton could do a few fast laps and burn his mediums completely and pit for softs and come out ahead of traffic (and Rosberg) and win the race.

Regle
Regle
0
Joined: 01 Jul 2013, 01:21

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

Shooty81 wrote:I think at the time when Rosberg was closing the gap to Hamilton, there was even a small chance for a Mercedes 1-2. But the MGP-Strategy didn't consider Hamiltons slowing down after the DRS zone and in the infield while Rosberg was behind.
I think his laptimes improved again after Rosbergs pit stop (does anybody have the actual laptimes?). So Hamiton's gap to Ricciardo would have been bigger, and he would have closed the gap to Alonso earlier. We will never know if Rosberg could catch Hamilton at the end in this scenario (his tyre-advantage being smaller, and maybe Alonso out of the way).

After a few "dirty moves" we have seen by both drivers, this is the first one to cost the team points.
I just read the exact same thing in an article, though without lap chart.
That adds another spicy detail to the situation....
Last edited by Steven on 29 Jul 2014, 23:32, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed fan frenzy

komninosm
komninosm
0
Joined: 05 Apr 2009, 18:41
Location: Macedonia

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

Shrieker wrote:Could Hamilton have come out ahead of Vettel and Alonso in the first sc period if he hadn't spun on the first lap ?

Analysis:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/07/27/2 ... -charts-2/

On the race chart check for only HAM, ROS, VET, ALO and JEV. On lap 7 (when the sc comes out) ALO, VET and ROS can't pit initially, HAM and JEV can. JEV, who is 25.3 seconds behind the leader on lap 7 comes out ahead of both ALO and VET. HAM was only 8 seconds behind JEV on lap 7 when the SC had come out. His first lap spin was most definitely worth more than 8 seconds. He would've come out ahead of ALO and VET like JEV did, and probably ahead of ROS as well. It's also worth noting he was 21 seconds behind the leading car at the end of the first lap alone.

It's a crying shame he threw a historic chance with a rookie mistake... Of course there were no guarantees he'd have won then, but he'd have had a much, much better shot than what he had.
I like the last comment there:

MattDS said on 28th July 2014, 14:24

Conclusion from the above graph: put Hamilton on 2 soft stints instead of 1 medium stint, see him overtake Alonso during the first of those stints and (almost) close the gap to Ricciardo, then pit again for softs in Ricciardo’s wake, easily re-overtake Alonso and then go on to win by overtaking Ricciardo?

I think Mercedes misjudged the big speed advantage the softs offered over the mediums, while lasting reasonably well too.

timorous
timorous
0
Joined: 27 Sep 2010, 15:58

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

Shrieker wrote:Could Hamilton have come out ahead of Vettel and Alonso in the first sc period if he hadn't spun on the first lap ?

Analysis:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/07/27/2 ... -charts-2/

On the race chart check for only HAM, ROS, VET, ALO and JEV. On lap 7 (when the sc comes out) ALO, VET and ROS can't pit initially, HAM and JEV can. JEV, who is 25.3 seconds behind the leader on lap 7 comes out ahead of both ALO and VET. HAM was only 8 seconds behind JEV on lap 7 when the SC had come out. His first lap spin was most definitely worth more than 8 seconds. He would've come out ahead of ALO and VET like JEV did, and probably ahead of ROS as well. It's also worth noting he was 21 seconds behind the leading car at the end of the first lap alone.

It's a crying shame he threw a historic chance with a rookie mistake... Of course there were no guarantees he'd have won then, but he'd have had a much, much better shot than what he had.
His best shot would have been to use the Option tyre when he pitted on Lap 39. He had done a 31 lap stint on options already and after overtaking JEV his lap times on Laps 35,36,37,38 were the same as Ricciardo's despite his tyres being 15 laps older.

Mercedes were too busy worrying about Nico and missed out on putting Hamilton on the Option tyre for a 30 lap run to the end. With brand new Options it would have been easy and he would have won comfortably. It also would have meant Rosberg was not held up by Hamilton and would have easily got 3rd and been in with a shout of 2nd.

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

Not everyone needs to like Hamilton (or any other driver). I used to loath him (as a result of all the superlatives used in any sentence with his name in 2007) - it's just in human nature to be biased. It doesnt stop us however in being objective, even surrounding things or persons we dont like. Lets just leave it at that and move on...

There is a quote further up that i find highly interesting;
timorous wrote:Mercedes were too busy worrying about Nico and missed out on putting Hamilton on the Option tyre for a 30 lap run to the end.
I think it came across like that to me too, even if the team didnt have malicious intent. I wonder how far the micromanagent in Mercedes goes; dont they also only employ one race strategist for both drivers? Perhaps the consense was that Lewis was always in his own race, realistically never going to challenge Rosberg. Lucky events and circumstances saw that Hamilton suddenly fighting for the same positions as his team mate. I wonder if on some level, Mercedes felt that Rosberg deserved to be ahead based on his starting position and that "luck through strategy" shouldnt let Hamilton finish ahead, in a way to avoid Rosberg to question his teams decisions and if perhaps Lewis (in his view) ended up unfairly ahead.

Not trying to fuel conspiracy theories here, just trying to explore the possibility on how far Mercedes seem to be keen on giving both drivers a level playing field as they have publicly stated. As an example; if the leading driver suffers bad luck beyond his control and the other all the good fortune and ends up ahead in what is deemed a crucial race (for WDC), would they step in to manage it that the (in their view) just result happens or would they let it be? Of course i dont think they would actually employ team orders like they did Massa/Alonso, but perhaps on a more subtle level like using different strategies etc...?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Emerson.F
Emerson.F
20
Joined: 20 Dec 2012, 22:25
Location: Amsterdam

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

Is Toto Wolff suffering from brain damage?? :wtf:



Toto Wolff.
"If Lewis had let Nico go, Nico could have won the race"
Source: http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/93975 ... -Conundrum
Supporting: Ham/Alo/Kimi/Ros/Seb/Hulk/Ric/Mag

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
551
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

markn93 wrote:Has a driver starting from the pitlane ever beaten a team-mate starting on pole, without a dnf/on merit before?

Apologies if answered already.
yes vettel on webber abu dhabi 2012
hamilton on button - spain 2012
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

timorous
timorous
0
Joined: 27 Sep 2010, 15:58

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

Phil wrote:I think it came across like that to me too, even if the team didnt have malicious intent. I wonder how far the micromanagent in Mercedes goes; dont they also only employ one race strategist for both drivers? Perhaps the consense was that Lewis was always in his own race, realistically never going to challenge Rosberg. Lucky events and circumstances saw that Hamilton suddenly fighting for the same positions as his team mate. I wonder if on some level, Mercedes felt that Rosberg deserved to be ahead based on his starting position and that "luck through strategy" shouldnt let Hamilton finish ahead, in a way to avoid Rosberg to question his teams decisions and if perhaps Lewis (in his view) ended up unfairly ahead.

Not trying to fuel conspiracy theories here, just trying to explore the possibility on how far Mercedes seem to be keen on giving both drivers a level playing field as they have publicly stated. As an example; if the leading driver suffers bad luck beyond his control and the other all the good fortune and ends up ahead in what is deemed a crucial race (for WDC), would they step in to manage it that the (in their view) just result happens or would they let it be? Of course i dont think they would actually employ team orders like they did Massa/Alonso, but perhaps on a more subtle level like using different strategies etc...?
I really hope that is not the case. The strategy decisions should be made that the lead driver gets the preferred strategy when both drivers are running close to each other. When the drivers are a long way apart then you may be able to employ the optimal strategy for both cars.

In cases like Hungary where the variables of weather and the safety car meant that Lewis got closer to Nico than the team anticipated the strategy should stay with the lead car, at the time Nico pitted on lap 32 that was him but thanks to some wonderful driving by Hamilton he was able to open up a 1 pit stop gap over Nico. In doing so Hamilton became the lead car and the strategy should have switched from Rosberg to Hamilton. However, since Nico pitted on Lap 32 there was no way he was doing a 38 lap stint on the Option tyre, that was a little too much so he was forced into a 3 stop. Due to the nature of the race it was difficult to know if the 2 stop or the 3 stop was faster so putting Hamilton onto the 2 stop to protect against a late rain shower was a totally valid strategy the issue is they should have known that Hamilton would come out a few seconds in front of Rosberg, the prime was slower so without team orders this would slow Rosberg up messing up his 3 stop strategy. Given that the team should have gone for the Option tyre on Lewis's car, that would have given him a bit more pace than Rosberg which would have avoided him being held up for 10 laps, that in turn would have maximised Rosbergs 3 stop strategy and given him a podium with a shot at second. Meanwhile Hamilton out on the softs would have been able to overtake Alonso and Massa and then cruised in clean air to the flag. Even if Hamilton had run out of Tyre towards the end they could have pitted him again around lap 60 and he could have made the podium.

That would have earned Mercedes a double podium, possibly a 1-2. It would have given them a new F1 record as being the first team to have a driver start in the pits and finish 1st. It would have dispelled any rumours over driver favouritism and given marketing something special to work with. Instead they were not dynamic enough to grasp the opportunity so they only ended up with one driver on the podium and this team orders PR issue.

All in all a really bad day at the office.

User avatar
markn93
13
Joined: 30 Jul 2013, 00:31

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

n smikle wrote:
markn93 wrote:Has a driver starting from the pitlane ever beaten a team-mate starting on pole, without a dnf/on merit before?

Apologies if answered already.
yes vettel on webber abu dhabi 2012
hamilton on button - spain 2012
Thanks, interesting it wasn't Lewis' first time.

zeph
zeph
1
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 11:54
Location: Los Angeles

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

Emerson.F wrote:Is Toto Wolff suffering from brain damage?? :wtf:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMdN8-k ... ture=share

Toto Wolff.
"If Lewis had let Nico go, Nico could have won the race"
Source: http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/93975 ... -Conundrum
Peter Windsor does a good job summarizing what really transpired on the track.

Whenever you question Mercedes' claimed level playing field, people are quick to deride you as a conspiracy nut, but everything Toto Wolff says and does seems to confirm the notion of Rosberg-favoritism.

Heck, not just within MercedesGP, even with race control.

User avatar
iotar__
7
Joined: 28 Sep 2012, 12:31

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

Emerson.F wrote:Is Toto Wolff suffering from brain damage?? :wtf: Toto Wolff. "If Lewis had let Nico go, Nico could have won the race"
Maybe he can count? Can you count the time Rosberg lost behind Hamilton directly, then the time lost when he came up behind Raikkonen and Massa after pitstop (because he lost the time behind LH)? Then he and Ricciardo had to encounter Alo/Ham.
Maybe if Hamilton was not trying to stay in front of Rosberg at all cost his tyres would have been in a better shape (100% theory) and he would have been able to overtake Alonso or stay in front of Ricciardo longer? Why didn't he, slower tyres or not, DRS, better car and engine and Alonso sliding wide? His tyres were gone - DR gained 5 s in 2 laps in free air.
timorous wrote:Mercedes were too busy worrying about Nico and missed out on putting Hamilton on the Option tyre for a 30 lap run to the end.
Were they? Like sending him into traffic? He was in front and deserved better strategy. I'm not sure about pitting Rosberg so early, what he gained over Vergne he lost against Bottas and had longer later stints. I thought Hamilton couldn't make mediums last and was driving at Alonso's pace + DRS for the last 10 laps anyway (no pace lost), how can you expect him to do it on softs? In advance I won't argue about it as I'm not sure about softs-mediums logic.

User avatar
ringo
227
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

Regle wrote: I didn't say his vocal fans had anything to do with it. In fact I said the opposite was true, at least for me.
It's not simply that he has faults. Just last weekend he gave an interview, which I don't have anymore so I can only cite it very vaguely, but it should be possible to find it, where after being asked, why this or that happened, he said: “I think we all know why.” The interviewer asked back: “So you're suggesting that the team/race control/whatever did XY on purpose?” HAM, awfully acting: “Oh, noooo… I should have KNOWN you were going to interpret it that way. No, that's not what I meant.” End of explanation. No word about what he actually claimed he was saying.
This is not simply a fault, this is arrogant and disgusting, these are childish games. And he's done that throughout his career.
I can't stand the way he's constantly trying to make a legend out of himself, comparing himself and Alonso to Senna and Prost with just one championship title, in his first season he claimed there had never been anything like him (winning races in the rookie season, when only ten years earlier Villeneuve had done the same), etc, etc.
Yes, I can dislike someone just from the screen because I can hear what he says.

By the way, I don't like Alonso either. Nor Rosberg.

I don't want to turn this into a Hamilton bashing and I've said it before, it was understandable that he didn't let Nico pass, but dislike for Hamilton does not come out of nowhere.
It's called entertainment. I like what he said. Very entertaining stuff. F1 needs more personality and back stories. We all know something is going on in mercedes, and Hamilton's choice of words is tantalizing to the curious. So i don't agree with you. Niki Lauda, Helmut Marko, Hamilton, Alosno, Button, I welcome their mind games and brashness.
For Sure!!

prince
prince
6
Joined: 01 Mar 2012, 11:22

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

iotar__ wrote:
Emerson.F wrote:Is Toto Wolff suffering from brain damage?? :wtf: Toto Wolff. "If Lewis had let Nico go, Nico could have won the race"
Maybe he can count? Can you count the time Rosberg lost behind Hamilton directly, then the time lost when he came up behind Raikkonen and Massa after pitstop (because he lost the time behind LH)? Then he and Ricciardo had to encounter Alo/Ham.
Maybe if Hamilton was not trying to stay in front of Rosberg at all cost his tyres would have been in a better shape (100% theory) and he would have been able to overtake Alonso or stay in front of Ricciardo longer? Why didn't he, slower tyres or not, DRS, better car and engine and Alonso sliding wide? His tyres were gone - DR gained 5 s in 2 laps in free air.
timorous wrote:Mercedes were too busy worrying about Nico and missed out on putting Hamilton on the Option tyre for a 30 lap run to the end.
Were they? Like sending him into traffic? He was in front and deserved better strategy. I'm not sure about pitting Rosberg so early, what he gained over Vergne he lost against Bottas and had longer later stints. I thought Hamilton couldn't make mediums last and was driving at Alonso's pace + DRS for the last 10 laps anyway (no pace lost), how can you expect him to do it on softs? In advance I won't argue about it as I'm not sure about softs-mediums logic.
In all of this explanation you conveniently ignored the fact that Nico was lousy behind JEV. That is where he lost the race.

Finally it seems like Wisdom is going to prevail at Mercedes. They are considering free hand for each driver to choose their own strategy and not impose anything as team.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115184

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
551
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

Nico Lost the Race when he couldn't stop JEV overtaking him in a Torro Rosso.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

User avatar
NathanOlder
48
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 10:05
Location: Kent

Re: 2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring

Post

n smikle wrote:
markn93 wrote:Has a driver starting from the pitlane ever beaten a team-mate starting on pole, without a dnf/on merit before?

Apologies if answered already.
yes vettel on webber abu dhabi 2012
hamilton on button - spain 2012

Both wrong im afraid. Neither Jenson or Webber started on pole those days. Webber was 2nd and Button was well down (can't remember where , not in top 8.) also Webber retired that day where her came together with Grosjean.

EDIT. Just checked, Jenson started 10th.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC