Torque and RPM relation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
huevergo
huevergo
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Torque and RPM relation

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This is a small question about torque and RPM.
I have a car with an inline 4 engine which can apparently get up to 7000 RPM. Never tried though. But it still struggles to reach 70 mph. The Bugatti Veyron's W16 can get upto only 6500 RPM but can reach 250'mph.
I read it has to do with torque as my car produces 106 ft lbs and the veyron does 922 ft lbs. but my car has 500 more revs. Shouldnt my car be faster?
What is the exact role of torque in such cases?

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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Forget about engine torque and rpm, there's something called gearbox, why the only thing that matters is engine power.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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The answer to your question on torque and rpm is and why the Veyron is miles faster is.... power.
Before this all kicks off (as all threads on this do).

You must realise the following:
Your engine doesn't produce 106 ft lbs of torque.
It produces 106 ft lbs @ at an engine speed.
That value of torque, at the specific speed produces/represents a value of power.

The Veyron doesn't produce 1001 HP.
It produces 1001 hp at an engine speed.
That value of power, at the specific engine speed requires a certain value of torque.

It is very important to get away from thinking in terms of peak figures. It also doesn't make sense to make a huge fuss about "torque VS power' (which is better YO!) and treating them as separate entities. They are so intrinsically linked.
Ultimately, you can think in terms of torque OR power and will come to the same conclusion (if you do your sums correctly).

The reason why the Veyron is so fast, is NOT because of the 1001PS. That headline figure is largely irrelevant. It's the fact it makes a massive mount of power across it's entire rev range. It generate at low of power across the rev range because it produces a lot of torque across the rev range. This is why we talk in terms of 'power curves' and 'torque curves'.

I'll add the wiki links for work, energy and power. As there is no point in me explaining it too.
work - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics)
energy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_energy
power - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics)

At a very fundamental level, ignoring all the constraints of reality (i.e. In maths world).
If we want to know the ultimate performance we only need to know power.
More power = faster delivery of energy = the more work you can do.


The real world we are constrained by the machines we can produce, and limitations of usability. Which is where torque and transmissions become important. We can deal with this in another post (or this one will becomes a monster).

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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a car is propelled by the torque around its driven axle (to be exact, by the road's reaction to that torque)
in any given car in any given gear torque and power are in proportion to each other, so are effectively the same thing
(your gearbox and the Veyron's are roughly the same)

importantly that proportion also all vary with the ratio of the final drive gear (located in what is often called the differential)
this ratio is very different (between your car and the Veyron)
and that proportion also varies with the road wheel diameter

if the Veyron had the same final drive ratio and road wheel diameter as your car it could not go faster than your car
if your car had the same final drive ratio and road wheel diameter as the Veyron it could only do only maybe 30 mph in top gear (or stall)
but eg could do 60 or 70 mph in maybe 2nd gear
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 31 Jul 2014, 18:56, edited 1 time in total.

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strad
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Brian.G
Brian.G
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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This video may help you understand things better, stick with it its old but gold as the saying goes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFjVWlyv6lU

Brian,
If you think you cant, you wont, If you think you can, you will

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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Let's try this scientifically;

Power (W) is Force (N) times speed (m/s) where;
Power is at the wheels, Force is the propulsion force between tires and road, while Speed is the car's speed at any given time.

Above 130 km/h (80 mph), Force becomes basically air-resistance and some rolling friction, where we ignore the latter;
Force = Cv*Area*Rho*Speed^2/2, why Power = Cv*Area*Rho*Speed^3/2.

From there the car's theoretical top-speed can be estimated with reasonable accuracy, given that the gearing is optimized.

Xample;
You got Wheel power = 100 kW (136 Hp), Cross section area = 2.2 m^2, Cv 0.35, Rho = 1.2 kg/m^2
Speed = (Power / 0.35 * 2.2 * 1.2 / 2)^1/3 gives a theoretical top speed of 60 m/s or 215 km/h or 134 mph.

A bit much it seems, but remember this is wheel power, theoretically in a perfect world of gearing and everything else.

To go twice as fast, 430 km/h, you would need 8 times the power due to the cubic air-resistance relation, or 1088 Hp.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Juzh
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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Brian.G wrote:This video may help you understand things better, stick with it its old but gold as the saying goes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFjVWlyv6lU

Brian,
Funny how a 3/4 of a century old video can explain things better than any modern attempt.

Brian.G
Brian.G
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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Juzh wrote:
Brian.G wrote:This video may help you understand things better, stick with it its old but gold as the saying goes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFjVWlyv6lU

Brian,
Funny how a 3/4 of a century old video can explain things better than any modern attempt.
Indeed, that video is magic, theres another one too on electric motors, Ill pm it to you.

Brian,
If you think you cant, you wont, If you think you can, you will

xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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New machines are more complicated, so it's easy to get bogged down in minutia and miss the concepts. Many threads on here decend into chaos for this reason. Particulally about power, torque and transmissions.

The beauty of old videos are that they come from a time when things were simple. The basic principles are really easy to visualise.

Once you understand that basic principle, you realise that modern stuff is basically the same.


I knocked up a spreadsheet earlier to show that a powerful engine can give great theoretical figures, but be utterly awful if its mated to inappropriate gear ratios.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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Brian.G wrote:This video may help you understand things better, stick with it its old but gold as the saying goes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFjVWlyv6lU

Brian,
I'm sure I saw this in 9th grade, it might be a little confusing to some when the say Force when they mean Torque though.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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But torque is force x distance. Or is that the bit they get confused? (Haven't had a chance to watch the video yet)
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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ringo
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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It's power, the torque is secondary.
Don't think of it as power at a certain speed. The engine's characteristic is based on the power available at every point in the rev range.
The power is the fundamental thing, torque is secondary; since it's just a mechanical translation to make the power useful.

Any kind of analysis you are doing on an engine, just focus on the power produced at whatever speed since it determines everything. The torque is a simple 1-2 calculation from that point.
For Sure!!

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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No, torque is fundamental. Power is derived from it.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Brian.G
Brian.G
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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xpensive wrote:
Brian.G wrote:This video may help you understand things better, stick with it its old but gold as the saying goes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFjVWlyv6lU

Brian,
I'm sure I saw this in 9th grade, it might be a little confusing to some when the say Force when they mean Torque though.
If only everyone was shown it in 9th grade....

Brian,
If you think you cant, you wont, If you think you can, you will