Torque and RPM relation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
bhall II
bhall II
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Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 20:15

Re: Torque and RPM relation

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flyboy2160 wrote:
bhall II wrote:...."Energy" wrench
Nonononono. Everybody knows you can't measure energy with a wrench. That's a He Who Shall Not Be Named Memorial Model Energy Meter.
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Torque bulb

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: Torque and RPM relation

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xxChrisxx wrote:Gruntguru will you stop saying the same --- thing over and over. More specifically repeating something I've already said back to me.

If you stop being so combative, you'll realise that we are saying the same damn thing. The difference is I am giving the explanation as to why this is the case rather than asserting it.

The worked example didn't ask for an estimate of tractive effort. It specifically asked for the actual traction through all the gears. Which has been shown you need a tacho and speed reference to use power curve as well as torque curve.


My next post was going to show that in most cases the constant power model, generally gives a reasonably accurate. However I was also going to highlight scenarios when it doesn't.

Showing both the pro's and con's of the constant power assumption.
Sorry Chris. I don't disagree with your posts. I just believe there is a simpler message - better suited to those that haven't got it yet.
je suis charlie

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Torque and RPM relation

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This ~40 year old classic Cycle magazine article lays the matter out in a practical/empirical way..

http://www.kawtriple.com/mraxl/articles ... bikes2.htm
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Torque and RPM relation

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Damn I remember the Kaw triple,,built a couple of Café Racers..damn they were fast but they lacked sufficient brake and that made them scary as hell. I built a 650 Trumpet café that would kick it's ass. Had Ceriani forks with Kosman dual discs to solve the braking problems
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Torque and RPM relation

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"Kick its ass" - Yeah right..

I came from a Triumph family, father & older brother, & started out on Triumphs.. ..& went to Kaw 3s..
As per that Cycle test, a stock 750 Kaw triple can pull close to 1G braking & fears no contemporary Triumph.

Do show us your 650 Triumph café racer 1/4 mile ET ticket - doubt it beats the stock 12.28sec Kaw time..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Torque and RPM relation

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This Kawasaki F750 manual.. http://www.3cyl.com/mraxl/manuals/h2r/h2rservice.pdf

..shows a dyno chart which can be compared with the stock street bike 750/3 dyno chart posted earlier.

This shows the relationship between maintaining torque output at higher rpm & developing race hp..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

zulum4trix
zulum4trix
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Joined: 27 Nov 2014, 15:42

Re: Torque and RPM relation

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Hi, just saw this thread and years ago i provided the full lession in a somewhat different context ( http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/r ... ost-349119 ) but still true:

Power versus Torque
Or
When a car does accelerate best?

The acceleration (a) of a car is proportional to the force (Fw) which is coming from the driven wheels and therefore proportional to the torque at the wheel (Tw), which depends on the torque of the engine (Te) and on the transmission ratio (ne/nw), which is the rpm of the engine (ne) divided by the rpm of the driven wheels (nw) and thus a summary of everything in between engine and driven wheels like the radius of the wheels (rw), the diff-settings and the gear ratio. Introducing Power (P) as P=T*2*PI*n - thus meaning Power is proportional to the product of Torque and rpm; PI is that 3,14… - we can examine the acceleration using the general relations F=m*a and T=F*r as

a = Fw / m = Tw / (rw*m) whereas m is the mass of the car of course.

Now we use the transmission ratio to switch to the torque of the engine with Tw=Te*(ne/nw) and get

a = Te * (ne/nw) * 1/(rw*m) and name that equation with (I).

Needless to say in a racing forum that Te varies with ne. Now it’s time for the Power of the engine and we can use Pe=Te*2*PI*ne to replace the torque of the engine

a = Pe/(2*PI*ne) * (ne/nw) * 1/(rw*m)

and sorting things in a different way leads us to

a = Pe/(2*PI*rw*nw)* 1/m

which now gives us the idea to detect the actual velocity v=2*PI*rw*nw of the driven wheel rolling on the track which is under assumption of full grip the velocity of the car. So we finally have

a = Pe/v * 1/m and name that equation with (II).

Needless to say that Pe varies with ne, too, of course.

Now we have everything together.

Examining equation (I) we’ll see that for a fixed transmission ratio the acceleration would be at maximum for a maximum torque, but a fixed transmission ratio means we must stay in a fixed gear and we are not allowed to gear up or down! The assumption of having only one allowed gear is not very practical. Much more practical is the question: Having the same actual velocity at present, maybe we could reach a better acceleration with another gear?

Examining equation (II) which is independent of any transmission ratio we’ll see that for a given velocity the best acceleration is just where the Power is highest and so we choose our gear and rush away! This can’t always be the absolute maximum of power, because we are examining a given velocity and a somehow given gearbox and that must not fit.

[...]So in general the acceleration is at its best for the absolute maximum of power! Just to confuse you but true: The absolute maximum of acceleration is always reached using the 1st gear (or often even the reverse gear) at torque maximum - cause here we can't choose an "old" gear which could hit the absolute maximum of power; think about it...

[...]But we wanna drive racecars and they must be adjusted to the track, so:

(_) Setting up a racecar to a track therefore means just take the last gear to reach the highest speed in the maximum of power, take the first gear to the slowest corner and spread out the gears in between equal or maybe in respect to some corners – and don’t care about torque.
(_) Shifting with that gearbox always will mean that you have to shift up if the new gear will have a better power than your present one and that must be after the maximum of power with your old gear, of course, and anyway if it’s a drag-setup or a track-setup! – Shifting at the absolute maximum of power always means a lack of acceleration.

But don't forget endurance in longer races.

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Torque and RPM relation

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My God...Not again PLEASE!!!!
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

langwadt
langwadt
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Joined: 25 Mar 2012, 14:54

Re: Torque and RPM relation

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strad wrote:My God...Not again PLEASE!!!!
lol, lets discuss if a 60watt light bulb is brighter in the EU than in the US because the uses 230V instead 110V

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Torque and RPM relation

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Well - if its a US light bulb it will be much brighter - but only briefly.
je suis charlie

Wayne DR
Wayne DR
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Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 01:07

Re: Torque and RPM relation

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langwadt wrote: lol, lets discuss if a 60watt light bulb is brighter in the EU than in the US because the uses 230V instead 110V
We use 240V in Australia, so it would be even brighter here!

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Torque and RPM relation

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This thread proves that it's relatively easy to build a program that generates posts automatically.

Post generator in action
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I believe that I found a relationship between thread duration and entertainment value of the thread:

Thread Boredom vs Duration (milliposts/minute)
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Ciro