Electric propulsion and other musings

[J.A.W.]

Layshaft (vs 'indirect') gearbox design offers a 1-1/direct top gear ratio with less loss of transmission 'efficiency'..

Perhaps a compact/annular mounting epicylic-type gearing set-up - is what you are angling for A-G?

Lay shaft gearboxes running in so called 'direct top' gear still have the complete gear train rotating in oil.
Even in top gear they can be compared directly with a washing machine.
The torque loss is huge, try turning one by hand.
As to figures for efficiency, the losses from oil drag is conveniently ignored in most cases and always has been.

It is possible to produce a stepped ratio gear box with no engaged gear movement at all and only one shaft bearing in direct top gear.
An eight speed version goes into an 84 mm box with no need for a clutch.

"Huge" is a nice adjective A-G, but not actually a quantifiably accurate assessment..
Racing motorcycles from ages past - have utilized low-loss transmissions, & small mills cant afford much loss..
.. inc' not requiring heavy oil/sumps for racing purposes..

Manolis has some interesting transmission ideas, apparently efficient enough for use in human powered vehicles..

[mzso]

--> car speed is different to the circumferential speed of the drive tires

-->if there is no gearing, the gearing is 1. And the circumstances are direct drive and use of an actual transmission.

Except for the odd wheelspin it isn't different.

If there's no gearing, there's no gearing. A gearing ratio of 1 is still gearing and has associated consequences. (Such gearing would be pretty pointless.)

What about some data,chart, formulas or something that has a bit of value. To say something with nothing to back it up means nothing.

Well, pull out a high-school textbook. I'm not about to explain simple maths/physics.

Also you didn't explain what you mean by "slip". You apparently use it for something I've seen no-one else do.

[andylaurence]

--> car speed is different to the circumferential speed of the drive tires

-->if there is no gearing, the gearing is 1. And the circumstances are direct drive and use of an actual transmission.

Except for the odd wheelspin it isn't different.

Exactly!

If there's no gearing, there's no gearing. A gearing ratio of 1 is still gearing and has associated consequences. (Such gearing would be pretty pointless.)

I think this might be confusion in wording. The ratio of engine/motor to road speed is 1:1 in a direct drive scenario with no drop gear sets.

What about some data,chart, formulas or something that has a bit of value. To say something with nothing to back it up means nothing.

Well, pull out a high-school textbook. I'm not about to explain simple maths/physics.

Glass houses, sunshine. Glass houses...

Also you didn't explain what you mean by "slip". You apparently use it for something I've seen no-one else do.

I'm pretty certain that tyre slip is a universal term. It has a US-equivalent called tire slip, but just like direct drive, they have a 1:1 ratio.

[mzso]

I'm pretty certain that tyre slip is a universal term. It has a US-equivalent called tire slip, but just like direct drive, they have a 1:1 ratio.

Maybe. Then I'm just unfamiliar with it. To be fair though, he writes weirdly, hard to decipher. I thought he was going on about vehicle speed being not dependent on rpm or something, which is ridiculous.

Exactly!

Exactly what?

So how is it relevant that when the tire spins out or the vehicle is turning there's a small amount of difference? (Also the tires a compressed more by downforce at high speeds.)
Different diameter wheels result in different speeds, even while turning, etc.

[autogyro]

"Huge" is a nice adjective A-G, but not actually a quantifiably accurate assessment..
Racing motorcycles from ages past - have utilized low-loss transmissions, & small mills cant afford much loss..
.. inc' not requiring heavy oil/sumps for racing purposes..

Manolis has some interesting transmission ideas, apparently efficient enough for use in human powered vehicles.

I was not stating a 'quantifiably accurate assessment' what ever that means.
Those who describe the utilization of 'low loss' transmissions are the ones who most often fail to quantify their statements.
When have you seen such a transmission compared to a 'single speed' direct drive IC power train?
Lay shaft gearboxes are only 'efficient' as the accepted gear train type as used over 200 plus years, not in comparison with anything else.
Manolis is a great engineer capable of thinking out of the box.
You should perhaps try it some time.

[J.A.W.]

Well A-G , 'huge' - unless dimensionally specified by numerically verifiable parameters - is a bit 'fuzzy'
But agreed A-G, more global scope thinking per Manolis is generally required..
& esp' with a race formula - if it is to be more than an endurance/reliability trial..

Back in the `60s the FIM limited motorcycles to 6-speed boxes, & are still stuck there..
This after a dozen (or more) speeds had previously been in common use....with alternative ratios ..as a tuning aid..
- to effectively maximise lap times/speed from highly strung, but overall - low powered, tiddlers.

But as even a genius would admit, 'standing on the shoulders of giants'..
& 'not re-inventing the wheel', by 'tilting at windmills' - is also a needful thing.

Have you seen those innovative Porsche designs from over a century ago, an electric motor in each wheel,
& he even built an electromotive Tiger tank for his mate Adolf, ~70 y/ago.

[autogyro]

Well A-G , 'huge' - unless dimensionally specified by numerically verifiable parameters - is a bit 'fuzzy'
But agreed A-G, more global scope thinking per Manolis is generally required..
& esp' with a race formula - if it is to be more than an endurance/reliability trial..

Back in the `60s the FIM limited motorcycles to 6-speed boxes, & are still stuck there..
This after a dozen (or more) speeds had previously been in common use....with alternative ratios ..as a tuning aid..
- to effectively maximise lap times/speed from highly strung, but overall - low powered, tiddlers.

But as even a genius would admit, 'standing on the shoulders of giants'..
& 'not re-inventing the wheel', by 'tilting at windmills' - is also a needful thing.

Have you seen those innovative Porsche designs from over a century ago, an electric motor in each wheel,
& he even built an electromotive Tiger tank for his mate Adolf, ~70 y/ago.

In wheel motors were on the streets much earlier than the Porsche.
The first Jordan F1 car designed by Gary Anderson had a seven speed gearbox, partly because I advised this as the maximum to Gary.
The FIA used this car to establish the maximum of seven for the regulations at the time.
It was recently changed to a max of eight gears to further help smooth out the near uncontrollable engagement jolts on down shifts that unsettle the cars.
Even the current shift systems if using a lay shaft gearbox preclude the use of more ratios because the shift speeds are still to slow to make multi speed boxes viable.
I had a bevel epicyclic full auto box back in the 70s under test with 25 stepped ratios.
Most things done today have been done to death in the past, so it is worth checking before investing time and money in some so called new ideas.

[mzso]

What Porsche did that was interesting is a series hybrid car, I think the very first ever. Too bad, that's not the way things went. Otherwise we would have poisoned our air less and would probably have much better batteries today.

[autogyro]

What Porsche did that was interesting is a series hybrid car, I think the very first ever. Too bad, that's not the way things went. Otherwise we would have poisoned our air less and would probably have much better batteries today.

Things would have been different today if GM had not bought up and scrapped all the electric transport systems they could and replaced them with inferior gasoline powered systems.
Same in Europe in most places but diesel rather than gasoline.
IC has ruled by delusion for nearly 200 years.

Electric propulsion and other musings
Musings; abstraction, preoccupation, brooding, wool-gathering;

[mzso]

...

So.... You have nothing to say about Formula E, or even electric cars, or anything remotely close to being on topic?

[autogyro]

...

So.... You have nothing to say about Formula E, or even electric cars, or anything remotely close to being on topic?

It is what the thread topic is mzso. Musings.
I shall be putting together a PDF on sheep shearing shortly.
Dis you know it is possible to extract static electricity from wool?
You can also get some from rubbing your head frantically like Bernie Eclestone and watching the sparks fly.

[mzso]

It is what the thread topic is mzso. Musings.
I shall be putting together a PDF on sheep shearing shortly.
Dis you know it is possible to extract static electricity from wool?
You can also get some from rubbing your head frantically like Bernie Eclestone and watching the sparks fly.

Ouch. I totally thought it was the other thread...

[Richard]

a musing it is then !
.....

Aha - You'll be wanting the electricity generation thread. Oh, as if by magic it's already there http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 88#p534488