2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[1158]

@henry @1158
Have a look at the recent MGU-K thread and the paper I posted, and my replies to Brian Coat. If you understand how this type of motor works, then you can easily understand how the intrinsic properties can be used for traction control. As written, your above shown quote, would be illegal. However there is no need to do any of that with reluctance/PPMT motor generators, or variations thereof. Also consider that the ICE and ERS is a loop system, and the throttle pedal is now a 'torque/power' demand control. I have re-posted the paper on the dropcanvas link below, together with a TI paper showing the circuit and software for speed/torque control for this type of motor.

http://dropcanvas.com/1op7y expires in 3 days

Thanks for the papers! I will read/digest over the next few days.

[Cold Fussion]

I had a thought today about the possibility of traction control via the Turbo/MGUH combo. It wouldn't use wheel speed sensors or gps or any of that as it would be illegal but an idea for a way around it hit me. The engine designers know how quickly these engines rev. If the software sees revs rising faster than a certain value could the MGUH not be directed to harvest more energy from the turbo thereby controlling/limiting boost/power and thus wheelspin?

Maybe this is already being done/discussed and I'm a day late and a dollar short...wouldn't be the first time. The engine thread is close to 500 pages so I'm not prepared to go back and look.

Even if it were not technically illegal, any closed loop system for managing power delivery is a certain breach of "the spirit of the rules" and would almost certainly be banned immediately after it was found out, don't forget FIA effectively banned interconnected suspensions mid season despite the fact they were not in breach of the regulations. I think the major risk you take with a closed loop traction control system like you mention is that you might get ejected from the competition all together, rather than just having a mid/end season ban while enjoying the benefits previously.

[henry]

@vortex37

Thanks for the papers. I have had a quick scan. Unfortunately both my electromagnetism theory and my differential calculus are somewhat past their sell by date. So I'm going to have to ask you for your insight.

Is it your opinion that there is some intrinsic property of these reluctance motors that means they would modulate output, and hence traction, beneficially, or is it that because they have to be software controlled by unmonitored code there is an obvious opportunity to put control loops in that would aid traction?

One of the motors described in the PPMT paper has an output of 10Kw in a 6"x6" package. This seems well short of what would be needed for the MGU-K. Is this typical of the power density of commercial PPMT motors?

[toraabe]

This begins to be interesting .

"Proposal of a standard, Mercedes-supplied hybrid system "

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... e-dispute/

[Harsha]

This begins to be interesting .

"Proposal of a standard, Mercedes-supplied hybrid system "

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... e-dispute/

If this is true Mercedes really playing the game their way i wonder Ferrari / Renault accept it

[aleks_ader]

This begins to be interesting .

"Proposal of a standard, Mercedes-supplied hybrid system "

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... e-dispute/

If this is true Mercedes really playing the game their way i wonder Ferrari / Renault accept it

WTF? What "basic V6 turbo" mean?

-compressor
-turbine
-ERSK motor
-ERSH motor
-CE (control eletronics, converters. looms, etc.)

[Vortex37]

@vortex37

Thanks for the papers. I have had a quick scan. Unfortunately both my electromagnetism theory and my differential calculus are somewhat past their sell by date. So I'm going to have to ask you for your insight.

Is it your opinion that there is some intrinsic property of these reluctance motors that means they would modulate output, and hence traction, beneficially, or is it that because they have to be software controlled by unmonitored code there is an obvious opportunity to put control loops in that would aid traction?

One of the motors described in the PPMT paper has an output of 10Kw in a 6"x6" package. This seems well short of what would be needed for the MGU-K. Is this typical of the power density of commercial PPMT motors?

2nd paragraph - Unable to put a graphic in the post so I will refer you to the drawings in this Wiki Link The timing of the drive waveform is critical to its' proper operation. Changing the waveform shape, Voltage and Current, and timing affect the torque/power delivery and rotational speed.

3rd paragraph - The author indicated a design for Boeing(?), so not a particularly high voltage, 115V 400Hz I would guess. Please note that I have always said, "reluctance/PPMT type", because there are many variations on type.

[Vortex37]

This begins to be interesting .

"Proposal of a standard, Mercedes-supplied hybrid system "

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... e-dispute/

There might be more to this than is initially apparent. In another FIA World Championship, a manufacturer has an exclusive on at least one piece of hardware they use for their ERS system. This could well be the case with Mercedes, in F1.

[Moose]

This begins to be interesting .

"Proposal of a standard, Mercedes-supplied hybrid system "

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... e-dispute/

Well played Mercedes, well played.

Offer the one part that it's suspected other teams do a better job of. This won't end dominance, it'll increase it!

[dren]

Didn't Mclaren supply all of the ECUs for the V8s?

This might not make much of a difference either way if Mercedes supplies the ERS. Surely their system is no dog.

[toraabe]

It means that Renault and Ferrari can fit their ICE with the Mercedes hybrid unit.
It means MGU-H /K + battery package + control unit.
But the big question is, does it means that they will offer the split turbo design ?
As I understand, yes because the MGU-H is an intergated part with the turbine and the compressor.
MC-Laren will still deliver the control unit as they have done the last years.

This begins to be interesting .

"Proposal of a standard, Mercedes-supplied hybrid system "

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... e-dispute/

If this is true Mercedes really playing the game their way i wonder Ferrari / Renault accept it

WTF? What "basic V6 turbo" mean?

-compressor
-turbine
-ERSK motor
-ERSH motor
-CE (control eletronics, converters. looms, etc.)

[dren]

I'd say the ERS means the MGUK, ECU, brake by wire system, batteries and controller. Maybe the MGUH would be supplied, but as a stand alone piece. I see the turbine/compressor as part of the ICE.

[rjsa]

Formula 1 had once one single engine dominating the Grid. Everyone but Ferrari used it. Back then the rules allowed for some experimenting and Renault came with the turbo. Messed it all up for Ford & Cosworth.

F1 is doomed if the ruling scheme does not change.

[J.A.W.]

Formula 1 had once one single engine dominating the Grid. Everyone but Ferrari used it. Back then the rules allowed for some experimenting and Renault came with the turbo. Messed it all up for Ford & Cosworth.

F1 is doomed if the ruling scheme does not change.

& even when the Ford-Cosworth V8 was fairly dominant, a position earned by continuous development..
..there was still interesting competition from BRM,
plus those sweet sounding 12 cylinder jobs by Ferrari & Matra-Simca..

Lets see if Honda can bring some real fight to the scene, & they've done pretty ok with turbo-tech before..

[toraabe]

I'd say the ERS means the MGUK, ECU, brake by wire system, batteries and controller. Maybe the MGUH would be supplied, but as a stand alone piece. I see the turbine/compressor as part of the ICE.

can be both, but I suggest that mercedes benz is assembling that as a whole unit itself that is bolted inside the vee of the engine with space made for expansion due to temperature changes