2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Actually - the best Crecy performance figures came from Ricardo - after R-R had ceased their work on it..

& engines are generally 'tidied up' appearance/auxiliary components-wise, once productionised..

Certainly series production piston engines of that era - such as the Merlin - gained weight,
- but did significantly improve on a power-to-weight ratio basis, & in frontal area/serviceability too..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

wuzak
444
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

riff_raff wrote:The performance numbers RR published for the Crecy should be taken with a grain of salt. The Crecy only ran on a test stand, and the total time run by all of the Crecy test engines was less than 200 hours. The Crecy was a high-performance 2T and its high EGTs would have been hard on the turbine materials available at the time. Also, once the Crecy was redesigned for use in an actual aircraft, it would have become much bulkier, heavier, and less efficient than the test rigs.
They should be taken with a grain of salt because they weren't official ratings derived from the 114 hour type test.

The EGT wasn't as high as the combustion temperatures from the WR-1 gas turbine. The Crecy's power recovery turbine was a half scale version of the WR-1.

Weight waise there would be some gains, but largely to do with performance.

Firstly the Crecy had a single speed single stage supercharger.It is likely that a 2 speed version would be required - in the Merlin that change added ~65lb.

The RAE also started doing some performance estimates of aircraft powered by a 2 stage Crecy. That change added a further ~200lb to the weight of the 2 speed Merlin.

Additional weight was gained by the Merlin because of changes to the construction (2 piece block/head -> 1 piece block/head -> 2 piece block/head) and because the engine was originally designed for 87 octane fuel and no more than +6psi boost but by mid war was expected to take +16psi or +18psi boost. In fact, by the end of the war maximum weak mixture cruise was done at +7psi boost.

The Crecy was designed for +18psi boost from the start, so I doubt much weight would be needed for strengthening. The main issues for reliability would have been the overheating pistons (poor cooling oil system - would have been redesigned to have sprays mounted in the block, rather than having the oil exit the top of teh con rod). and the sleeve. Neither of which should add much, if any, weight.

wuzak
444
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

J.A.W. wrote:Actually - the best Crecy performance figures came from Ricardo - after R-R had ceased their work on it..

& engines are generally 'tidied up' appearance/auxiliary components-wise, once productionised..

Certainly series production piston engines of that era - such as the Merlin - gained weight,
- but did significantly improve on a power-to-weight ratio basis, & in frontal area/serviceability too..
These performances were done with Ricardo's own test rig, the E.65. This did nit have the same bore or stroke as the Crecy.

They had a couple of the Rolls-Royce V twin test engines, but used them as single cylinder engines anyway.

I don't think Ricardo ever had a "main" engine to play with.

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Yeah, I'd reckon it's fair comment..
..to remark that once R-R had Stanley Hooker's imprimatur on Frank Whittle's turbine,
- they lost interest altogether in big recip's.. 'cept for paying nominal heed to outstanding contract work..

Harry Ricardo was keen enough to pursue his Crecy ideas in functional metal form,
& derive meaningful results as proof of his sleeve valve 2T concept at least.. & they still tantalize - even now..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

uniflow
36
Joined: 26 Jul 2014, 10:41

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

J.A.W. wrote:.. & they still tantalize - even now..
Yes they do!

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Rare factory Kawasaki 2T sports racer..

http://www.thekneeslider.com/kawasaki-f ... to-racing/
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

P&W sponsored patent to utilize HCCI 2T free piston design - in high efficiency turbo-compound mill.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20110239642
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

User avatar
FW17
168
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Renault is a major small-diesel manufacturer, and it seems likely that with what the company calls the "POWERFUL" (POWERtrain for FUture Light-duty vehicles) concept, it might be first out the gate with a small two-stroke diesel for passenger cars.

The POWERFUL is half the size of the company's basic 1.5-liter dCi turbodiesel passenger-car engine; it weighs a full 88 lbs less, and in its current form is capable of making 48–68 horsepower out of just 0.73 liters. The POWERFUL uses both a supercharger and a turbocharger, just like other twin-charged engines.

That being said, Renault's not happy with the performance of POWERFUL yet. Further development is required before it's ready for prime time. France is reconsidering its love affair with diesel as we speak, but perhaps tiny two-strokes will show the way forward.

Image

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Yeah, I posted a link to this Renault 2T development a ways back on this thread..
I wonder if the issue with incomplete burn/particulate hazard of diesel fuel is not also a driver here?
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

http://www.martinjetpack.com/technical/v4-engine

Kiwi ducted fan flyer claims 200hp from 2T mill..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

gruntguru
563
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

And just listed on the Australian stock exchange, raising AUD27M.
je suis charlie

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Jetpack V4



Would you rely on that parachute? I wouldn´t

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

I think the idea is to trust the mill A-125..

& what would you do instead of using the 'chute, if it came to it - then?
Flapping likely would not help much..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

No the idea should be to not need a chute, they´re fine for peace of mind, but this sort of aircraft will never fly to the height needed to deploy a parachute safely in case of a failure, even if it´s rocket launched

Wich is the reason this sort of aircraft has never succed, despite being tested for several decades, the result is always the same... with no redundacy they´re not safe enough

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post

Well A-125.. that's a bit funny ironic - from someone who enjoyed 'getting air' while 2T powered & sans 'chute..

"Never say never".. & as G-G posted, there are now $27 million reasons to disagree with your opinion..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Post Reply