W06 Front Wing Discussion

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CBeck113
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Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W06

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Turbo and trini, you are making a detremental error in your arguementation: you are assuming that everything that happens on the front wing solely happens because the designers want it that way. This is sadly not the case, otherwise we would have had perfect wings for years now.

The effects which Ben is trying to explain are very real, and happen on every wing. You say you need high pressure air to bleed over to low pressure air in order to create a vortex? Tell me what happens in those slots - what is their purpose, and how do they achieve this? They cut down the boundary layer (high pressure) by letting it bleed off to the underside of the wing through the slots. Hmmmmmm....

:?:


:idea:


:!:


The problem? These vortices may or may not be useful, since they have no geometric point as a source - they can move, pop up at certain speeds (maybe even in corners), and disappear again, so they tend to be more of a hinderance than a blessing. What do you do to help? This:

Image

Why is there only one vortex generator on the lower element, but at least four visible on the second?

Image

If you control them, you can use them, or at least minimize their affect. Every wing surface has the potential to cause vortices, that is the result of the pressure delta. The geometrical limits is where they form easily, especially at wing ends or on the tips of vortex generators, but the physical properties are always at some level existant. This cannot be ignored.

"We are all born ignorant, but we must work hard to remain stupid" B. Franklin
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

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DAMNINice
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Joined: 16 Feb 2012, 08:50

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W06

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turbof1 wrote:For Bhall to keep hammering on "you are wrong", something really has to be wrong with my reasoning in this instance.

I suggest not looking at my explanations for a moment. I'll have to ask around where the knot in my thinking is; it is honestly a pain in the ass, because if you are up to a point where you think you can visualize it, it's rather difficult to start seeing it differently :| .

However, we will fix this:
I apologize for yet again shining a spotlight on the Dunning-Kruger effect. It was very stupid of me to think this could have possibly ended any other way.
Once I truly have figured this out, we will continue this debate.
I look forward to...
great discussion with lots of deep information into low/high pressure vortex generation and vortex behvior. =D>
REal men play with twins!

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turbof1
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W06

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CBeck113 wrote:Turbo and trini, you are making a detremental error in your arguementation: you are assuming that everything that happens on the front wing solely happens because the designers want it that way. This is sadly not the case, otherwise we would have had perfect wings for years now.
Ok I get that. However, we can assume that the change Mercedes applied, is because they want something different to happen. What do they want to happen differently?

If possible, draw what happens!
Image
#AeroFrodo

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DAMNINice
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Joined: 16 Feb 2012, 08:50

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W06

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CBeck113 wrote:...


:!:


The problem? These vortices may or may not be useful, since they have no geometric point as a source - they can move, pop up at certain speeds (maybe even in corners), and disappear again, so they tend to be more of a hinderance than a blessing. What do you do to help? This:

http://f1tcdn.net/gallery/var/resizes/2 ... 4ma109.jpg

Why is there only one vortex generator on the lower element, but at least four visible on the second?...
Maybe it´s a language problem, but I think you are trying to say that slots are there to create vortices?? But I don´t think thats the main reason. The slots are there to apply fresh fast flowing air on the underside of the wing to be able to keep the airflow attached:
Non cascaded wing stalls
Image

A cascaded wing will not stall with same AoA:
Image

the reason for the vortex generators is simply only on the second element because the third and middle element is the main element where the AoA changes from low angle of the lower two, to the higher angle on the upper two elements. so keeping the ariflow attached at the middle element (with the bigger "bend") is key!
REal men play with twins!

CBeck113
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Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W06

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DAMNINice wrote:
CBeck113 wrote:...


:!:


The problem? These vortices may or may not be useful, since they have no geometric point as a source - they can move, pop up at certain speeds (maybe even in corners), and disappear again, so they tend to be more of a hinderance than a blessing. What do you do to help? This:

http://f1tcdn.net/gallery/var/resizes/2 ... 4ma109.jpg

Why is there only one vortex generator on the lower element, but at least four visible on the second?...
Maybe it´s a language problem, but I think you are trying to say that slots are there to create vortices?? But I don´t think thats the main reason. The slots are there to apply fresh fast flowing air on the underside of the wing to be able to keep the airflow attached:
Non cascaded wing stalls
https://scarbsf1.files.wordpress.com/20 ... talled.jpg

A cascaded wing will not stall with same AoA:
https://scarbsf1.files.wordpress.com/20 ... ement1.jpg

the reason for the vortex generators is simply only on the second element because the third and middle element is the main element where the AoA changes from low angle of the lower two, to the higher angle on the upper two elements. so keeping the ariflow attached at the middle element (with the bigger "bend") is key!

Nope, I meant that the delta p necessary to create downforce also creates the necessary environment to create vortices - they are just not normally wanted. I am at work and can't drawe any pretty pictures today, so it may be a couple of days until I get to it...
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W06

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Guys... stop bickering. You are going off on a tangent. Mercedes just wanted to make the same vortex a stronger vortex. That's all there is to it. The newly shaped elements are just that. No new vortices are introduced. The same votices just stronger ones.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

mkay
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Joined: 21 May 2010, 21:30

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W06

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James Allen reporting that Ferrari is able to run a more aggressive engine mapping in the race thanks to a strong battery and efficient compressor relative to the Mercedes - is that true?

Is Mercedes taking steps to improve the PU for Barcelona onwards?

Nathanael F1
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Joined: 20 Apr 2015, 21:54

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W06

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SectorOne wrote:anyone know where these vortices are coming from? (not the rear wing tips, look closer on the front tires)

https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/20 ... a-2013.jpg
What year Ferrari is that? At first I thought it's the F138 but the front somehow looks different.
Favorite Team: Scuderia Ferrari
Favorite Driver: Nico Hülkenberg

Advino116
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014, 13:32

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W06

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That is the F138..

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W06

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Nathanael F1 wrote:
SectorOne wrote:anyone know where these vortices are coming from? (not the rear wing tips, look closer on the front tires)

https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/20 ... a-2013.jpg
What year Ferrari is that? At first I thought it's the F138 but the front somehow looks different.
It is a different version of the nose they ran at Canada. Probably Monza too, and maybe some other places.

Nathanael F1
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Joined: 20 Apr 2015, 21:54

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W06

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timbo wrote:
Nathanael F1 wrote:
SectorOne wrote:anyone know where these vortices are coming from? (not the rear wing tips, look closer on the front tires)

https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/20 ... a-2013.jpg
What year Ferrari is that? At first I thought it's the F138 but the front somehow looks different.
It is a different version of the nose they ran at Canada. Probably Monza too, and maybe some other places.
Ah, I see. Thanks!
Favorite Team: Scuderia Ferrari
Favorite Driver: Nico Hülkenberg

bhall II
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Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 20:15

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W06

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At the risk of stoking the embers, so to speak, I'm going to give this one more shot, because I'm a stubborn ass, and I can't help but feel like I somewhat did a disservice to the previous discussion by virtue of, well, being me.

Of the new end plate design, where I previously said "the wider, the better," this is what I meant...

(I'm convinced that if you grow up as an only-child, you tend to feel like everyone somehow knows what you're thinking, as you simply don't have to explain yourself to others all that often. Or something like that. Too personal?)

For our purposes here, let us concern ourselves only with the wing's ability to create vortices at the end plates, because these are the chief sources of downforce for an inverted wing in ground effect. Other aspects of the wing are indeed important, but maybe not quite as much and would likely only tend to sidetrack the discussion away from the main idea.

Image

(Quick note: all diagrams and illustrations should be considered highly generalized representations of the phenomena in question. Specific details are all but impossible for anyone who doesn't have direct access to very precise test data for very specific airfoils in very specific conditions.)

Here we go...

Unless otherwise separated by something, all pressure tends to flow from high to low in order to equalize (remember this, because it will be important later).

As such, a vortex is formed any time a relatively high-pressure flow physically merges with a relatively low-pressure flow, because the interaction between the two causes a sort of a tumbling action as particles of air from the high-pressure stream are sucked into the low-pressure stream then pushed back into the high-pressure stream then sucked back into the low-pressure stream then pushed back into the high-pressure...and so on. This continues indefinitely in the form of a spiral until the pressures of both streams equalize to normal ambient conditions.

For an airfoil producing lift on an aircraft, this happens when the high-pressure flow under the wing is sucked into the low-pressure flow over it.

Image

For an airfoil producing downforce on a race car, that action is reversed: the high-pressure stream over the wing is sucked into the low-pressure flow below.

Image

In all instances, the pressure difference between the two streams dictates the strength of the vortex created. The greater the difference, the stronger the vortex.

Let's talk briefly about about the aerodynamics of wheels...

Bernoulli tells us that static pressure, which is the local pressure found at any given point, is highest where speed is lowest, and air flow directly in front of a wheel is essentially stagnant. That means the area immediately in front of a wheel represents an area of high pressure. Generally speaking, air flow virtually everywhere else around a wheel is faster, which means static pressure virtually everywhere else around wheel is lower.

Once again, Adrian Newey...
Adrian Newey wrote:Previously, the front wing end plate allowed us to put the flow off the tip of the wing outside of the front wheel, but now the front wing end is right in front of the wheel – about the worst possible place. It's not inside or outside, so that means the majority of the flow now stagnates in front of the front wheel. A little bit finds its way outside and the rest comes inside, and in doing so makes quite a mess. The front wheel wake becomes much bigger and that causes all sorts of problems downstream as you approach the side pod and diffuser.
The reason for this is because the sequence of local pressure areas leading from the wing, specifically the underside, which features faster flow, and thus lower static pressure, to the wheel, where speeds are slower and static pressure is higher, forms what's called an adverse pressure gradient. This is bad, because air flow does not "want" to move in this manner, from low to high. As we've already established, pressure "wants" to flow from high to low.

An adverse pressure gradient will cause boundary layer flow under the wing to reverse itself, because it will flow from high to low regardless of direction, and when this happens, the boundary layer is said to separate from the wing. (Note: this eventually occurs on all front wings. The key is delaying it as long as possible and then minimizing the damage after it does. How this is addressed is above my pay grade. But, I suspect it involves the strakes frequently found under the wings.)

The longer wingspan of the 2009-2013 wings were less sensitive to this condition, because the longer length allowed for end plates that more easily "connected" air flow from the wing to air flow outside the wheel, which, again, is of relatively lower pressure than the stagnant area directly in front of it.

Image

Luckily for designers who have to deal with these shorter wings, the areas of high pressure in front of the wheels are themselves dynamic, meaning they move as steering lock is applied.

When the wheels are pointed directly ahead, the high pressure area in front of them dramatically reduces wing efficiency due to the resultant adverse pressure gradient. However, this isn't really the end of the world, because downforce is more or less unnecessary when the car's driven straight. The wing just needs to maintain a bit of a vortical flow, something akin to the pilot lights of a furnace.

Image

When the car enters a corner, where downforce is very important, the steering angle change removes a portion of the blockage to the end plate, strengthening the vortex, which increases the efficiency of the wing. Remember: vortical strength is dictated by pressure differential, and removing the adverse pressure gradient restores more favorable pressure conditions.

Image

Image

If we consider the so-called "vortex generator tunnel" to actually function as part of the end plate, and I think we should...

Image

...the wider version found on the new wing means less steering lock is needed in order to increase the efficiency of the wing through corners.

(Admittedly, the different angles shown below don't make for an ideal comparison. Too lazy to look for something better.)

Image

Pretty much any steering angle change will begin to unblock flow. That means downforce production will be more consistent.

Image

Once again, though, this comes at a cost. By necessity, the increased end plate area is a subtraction of the main plane's surface area. That means the new wing will produce less peak downforce, because it will create weaker vortices due to reduced overall flow.

Obviously, this tradeoff is one Mercedes has deemed worthwhile. But, and this is just my opinion, I think it could be significant, as it may very well indicate that overall aerodynamic development of the car has already reached the stage of diminished returns. The team appears to be polishing its characteristics at this point more than anything else. (Plus, since the only way the end plate could be enlarged was by growing it inward, they've essentially increased air flow between the wheels, which isn't exactly ideal, because underbody efficiency is best served when such air flow is actually reduced. The brake duct should catch some of this, though.)

There's also the possibility that this wing will only be used at circuits like Bahrain where downforce is less critical.

EDIT: I should mention that nothing I've said here should in any way be considered complete. To keep it relatively simple, I've ignored a few things that aren't especially necessary to a conversation about the fundamentals, like turning vanes, blown axles, tire wake, etc, etc.

In any case, that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Now, let the beatings begin! :D

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: W06 Front Wing Discussion

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What I'm reading is the point of the outwash wing is to push (guide) the airflow that the wing doesn't see head on around the front tires, so it doesn't adversely affect flow rearward, like the stagnation does.

There shouldn't be much of any stagnation in front of the tires if there is no air able to hit this area. Shouldn't it actually be more of a low pressure area? The front wing is basically enabling the front tires to 'draft', like cars do down the straight. Right?
Honda!

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turbof1
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Re: W06 Front Wing Discussion

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dren wrote:What I'm reading is the point of the outwash wing is to push (guide) the airflow that the wing doesn't see head on around the front tires, so it doesn't adversely affect flow rearward, like the stagnation does.

There shouldn't be much of any stagnation in front of the tires if there is no air able to hit this area. Shouldn't it actually be more of a low pressure area? The front wing is basically enabling the front tires to 'draft', like cars do down the straight. Right?
I think you are seeing the tyre as a stationary object. A rotating tyre will probably force airflow coming from the top, rotate downwards. Airflow flowing from one direction and the tyre rotation in the opposite direction, is probably very hazardous for the velocity. Hence why the tyre wake is high pressure.

Atleast that's how I think it is.
#AeroFrodo

bhall II
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Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 20:15

Re: W06 Front Wing Discussion

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dren wrote:What I'm reading is the point of the outwash wing is to push (guide) the airflow that the wing doesn't see head on around the front tires, so it doesn't adversely affect flow rearward, like the stagnation does.

There shouldn't be much of any stagnation in front of the tires if there is no air able to hit this area. Shouldn't it actually be more of a low pressure area? The front wing is basically enabling the front tires to 'draft', like cars do down the straight. Right?
Static pressure is highest where speed is lowest. So, the efficiency of any wing element directly in front of a spinning wheel, an area where flow tends to stagnate (slow down), is reduced, because the static pressure on the underside of the wing, where flow is comparatively faster, is lower than the static pressure in front of the wheel.

Since the forward motion of the car results in an attempt to somehow force air flow from a low-pressure area to a high-pressure area, it creates an adverse pressure gradient, because pressure always flows from high to low instead. This causes boundary layer flow to separate from the wing, as it will reverse itself in order to flow from high pressure to low pressure, regardless of its initial direction.

Make sense?

As far as the front wing is concerned, notwithstanding anything else, guiding air flow around the wheels is paramount for its efficiency. It doesn't matter if it flows inside or outside.

The choice to guide it outside the wheel is one based upon maintaining the efficiency of underbody downforce, because you don't really want anything other than so-called "sealing" vortical flow under the car if at all possible.

The aerodynamic interaction between flow from the front wing, nose, wheels, brake duct appendages, suspension, etc, is arguably the most complex interaction on the entire car. All of it must be taken into account if one hopes to even get within striking range of an accurate description (and it is beyond our reach here).

One of the reasons why the 150 Italia sucked is because Ferrari could not accurately model this interaction.

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