Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team 2015

[evered7]

It does apply to Mercedes as well, isn't it? But, they are still moving forward, creating gap to Ferrari. SF15-T, whose early season performances evoked OVER THE TOP responses that it is a legitimate challenger to W06, but look what has happened. By their own admission, the car was supposed to be aggressively fighting with W06 with those "70% changes". Which means, the performance they were expecting, didn't come OR Mercedes outsmarted them, without major changes to the car or PU.

Where did they say these changes will let them fight aggressively with Mercedes? I remember Arrivabene saying that 70% of the car has changed and that was all.

If their updates worked, why was Williams so close in Barcelona and Mercedes so far? Two Red Bulls beat a Ferrari fair and square in Monaco. Isn't it shameful for a team with abundant budget, that you have to regard their fixing of a fundamental flaw as an achievement?

Well, two Ferraris finished comfortably ahead of two RBs in Spain and one Ferrari beat both the RBs in Monaco, suppose that is also shameful for a team with a budget equal to Ferrari I believe? And Williams were nowhere in Monaco and both were a lap down until the SC came to their rescue. Wonder what to say about that?

But what is happening currently, isn't anything different either. The gap to Mercedes is growing and with every passing weekend, people are accepting that there are no credible challengers to Merc and Ferrari is indeed has settled into second best team.
Are you readily discarding the fact that their rise to Second spot has nothing to do with Williams and Red Bull slipping back? On the basis of how they are performing, can you bet your life that IF (A BIG IF) Red Bull and McLaren resurge (just like ferrari did this year), Ferrari would still outperform them to retain the current position in the order?

I would expect Ferrari to be competing at the sharp end next season as well no matter what the other teams do. This is an engine based formula and they have got that working reliably fast unlike other teams. McLaren couldn't do much last year even with an engine that was class of the field. Its a big IF about them coming strong next season. The gap is growing you say, yet Ferrari managed to beat a Mercedes car in Bahrain, Monaco and took a win in Malaysia as well.

How does it matter how many tokens they spent or kept. Performance has to be the distinguishing factor and that doesn't really convinces to feel anything positive.

The tokens matter because it gives them more freedom with regards to the development of the PU. Ferrari haven't sustained any reliability issues yet this year and have managed to get a win and be on the podium in the rest of the races comfortably.

That the other teams have done a shoddy job isn't Ferrari's concern considering that it was their own bad job that let RB/Williams to leapfrog them last year.

Finally, this was what Wolff had to say when asked in the Q/A about the Monaco race. He considers Ferrari a real threat by his own admission and rules out artificially spicing up the championship.

Was that deliberate mistake to make the race towards championship interesting?
“Would we ever do this to the guy leading the championship with Ferrari a real threat to us? Answer: No.”

[GPR-A duplicate2]

The F2012, for instance, was subject to the biggest competitive turnaround I've ever seen. It went from 2.5s off the pace in preseason testing to a stone's throw away from a World Championship (which it could have delivered were it not for outside influences, like Grosjean's eerily accurate impression of a bull in a china shop at Spa).

I am comparing the qualifying performances of 2012, for two circuits that put onus on Downforce and Top speed equally. I don't find much of a difference to the leader, which means they simply didn't matched the best development team of that year.
(From Wikipedia)
Malaysia 2012 Qualifying:
1. Lewis - 1:36.219
4. Webber - 1:36.461 (+0.242 Sec)
9. Alonso - 1:37.566 (+1.347 Sec)

USA 2012 Qualifying:
1. Vettel - 1:35.657
2. Lewis - 1:35.766 (+0.109 Sec)
9. Felipe - 1:36.937 (+1.280 Sec)

As for stone's throw for 2012 championship, look at the image below to get an idea about how luck played part in providing opportunities for Alonso to steal valuable points when the championship contenders were struggling for various reasons. We also know the dilemma Red Bull went through where they were figuring out which Exhaust to use, where Vettel was struggling with the removal of EBD. The points collected, due to luck having played a role, enabled Alonso to all the way to the last race and that was definitely not on performance merit.


The average qualifying position for the whole year, doesn't give any different picture either.


That to me, is the conclusion that 2012 was a combination of good luck on Alonso's part and early struggles of RBR and not to forget unbelievably idiotic McLaren team, who started and ended the year with fastest car only to have adventurously strayed away in the middle part (reliability + strategy/pit stop messes).

And remember: Red Bull also brought an update of similar scale to Barcelona that more or less resulted in the same outcome.

Their situation is altogether a different case study.

We came here with upgrades this weekend but they didn’t give us what we were expecting, so that’s something we’ll keep working on.

We've seen that a few times this year, and I think it probably speaks more to F1's ever-tightening regulations than it does to any given team's capabilities. In other words, the rules may have finally rendered upgrades theoretical at best.

I agree for a point that, the rules have curbed MAJOR developments, but refining the existing package with a number of small/medium changes is still possible and that is evident from Last year's Williams progress in second half to surpass Red Bull and the lack of which this year, has pushed Sauber below.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Well, two Ferraris finished comfortably ahead of two RBs in Spain and one Ferrari beat both the RBs in Monaco, suppose that is also shameful for a team with a budget equal to Ferrari I believe? And Williams were nowhere in Monaco and both were a lap down until the SC came to their rescue. Wonder what to say about that?

EDIT: Excuse me, for your information, Kimi Raikkonen finished behind Bottas in spain. One Ferrari was behind the Red Bulls in Monaco, who as we all know are a team badly struggling. I would have agreed with you if Red Bull were also the PU manufacturers to term them shameful. The PU performance is out of their control, so it's not exactly same situation with Ferrari and RBR.

[evered7]

Well, two Ferraris finished comfortably ahead of two RBs in Spain and one Ferrari beat both the RBs in Monaco, suppose that is also shameful for a team with a budget equal to Ferrari I believe? And Williams were nowhere in Monaco and both were a lap down until the SC came to their rescue. Wonder what to say about that?

Excuse me, are you on the same planet as we are? For your information, Kimi Raikkonen finished behind Bottas. One Ferrari was behind the Red Bulls, who as we all know are a team badly struggling.

And since when is Bottas driving a RB? I said both Ferraris beat both the Red Bulls in Spain. Considering that a Mercedes with an increasing advantage (as per you) couldn't overtake a slower Ferrari on the streets of Monaco, it is difficult to expect Kimi to pull out an overtake on RB in Monaco to finish ahead of them.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Well, two Ferraris finished comfortably ahead of two RBs in Spain and one Ferrari beat both the RBs in Monaco, suppose that is also shameful for a team with a budget equal to Ferrari I believe? And Williams were nowhere in Monaco and both were a lap down until the SC came to their rescue. Wonder what to say about that?

Excuse me, are you on the same planet as we are? For your information, Kimi Raikkonen finished behind Bottas. One Ferrari was behind the Red Bulls, who as we all know are a team badly struggling.

And since when is Bottas driving a RB? I said both Ferraris beat both the Red Bulls in Spain. Considering that a Mercedes with an increasing advantage (as per you) couldn't overtake a slower Ferrari on the streets of Monaco, it is difficult to expect Kimi to pull out an overtake on RB in Monaco to finish ahead of them.

The proof was there to be seen in Bahrain, where a healthy Merc pulled off overtake moves on Ferraris and a healthy Ferrari couldn't on a Williams.
EDIT: We are completely going astray from the point, my argument that Ferrari simply doesn't have it in them to beat any championship leader. Hasn't happened in a decade and doesn't look like happening in near future.

[evered7]

Excuse me, are you on the same planet as we are? For your information, Kimi Raikkonen finished behind Bottas. One Ferrari was behind the Red Bulls, who as we all know are a team badly struggling.

And since when is Bottas driving a RB? I said both Ferraris beat both the Red Bulls in Spain. Considering that a Mercedes with an increasing advantage (as per you) couldn't overtake a slower Ferrari on the streets of Monaco, it is difficult to expect Kimi to pull out an overtake on RB in Monaco to finish ahead of them.

The proof was there to be seen in Bahrain, where a healthy Merc pulled off overtake moves on Ferraris and a healthy Ferrari couldn't on a Williams.

LOL! Now we are going to Bahrain RBR are the works team for Renault. It is their job to work with them and get the engine sorted for their chassis after all it was the same supplier that powered them to 4 titles from 2010-2014. They got three wins in 2014 as well with the same puny engine.

An new SS shod Mercedes couldn't overtake a Ferrari with rank old soft tires (having tire temp issues) but somehow Kimi was supposed to finish ahead of the RBs =D>

[bhall II]

As for stone's throw for 2012 championship...

Yes, a stone's throw. Regardless of any external factors that undoubtedly played a role in the final result, taking a car that was 2.5s off the pace in preseason testing to within three points of a World Championship is a significant achievement, because it's emblematic of both fruitful independent development as well as a successful avoidance of the issues that plagued the opposition.

I don't think anyone denies that Ferrari has underperformed in recent years, especially relative to expectations. But, ask yourself this: how different would the last five years look if Alonso had managed to pass Petrov at Abu Dhabi in 2010 or if Grosjean hadn't tried to drive through everything at Spa in 2012? Ferrari's overall management of those two seasons was good enough that two events completely outside the team's developmental control proved decisive, and that's not really indicative of a team that's as lost as some would have us believe.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Yes, a stone's throw. Regardless of any external factors that undoubtedly played a role in the final result, taking a car that was 2.5s off the pace in preseason testing to within three points of a World Championship is a significant achievement, because it's emblematic of both fruitful independent development as well as a successful avoidance of the issues that plagued the opposition.

Regardless of the final results, are you sure they had a championship contender in their hands in 2012, if not for Alonso? My whole argument is based on the fact that Ferrari haven't managed to be at top of the pile, purely based on Merit. They have been at best, the second good team, which is never going to help any driver(s) win championship.

I don't think anyone denies that Ferrari has underperformed in recent years, especially relative to expectations.

That is the whole point. The way Formula 1 now is, it's almost impossible to win from behind and Ferrari doesn't seem have it in them to start from front.

But, ask yourself this: how different would the last five years look if Alonso had managed to pass Petrov at Abu Dhabi in 2010 or if Grosjean hadn't tried to drive through everything at Spa in 2012? Ferrari's overall management of those two seasons was good enough that two events completely outside the team's developmental control proved decisive, and that's not really indicative of a team that's as lost as some would have us believe.

My answer is, if Alonso had a car with which he could have started from front, he wouldn't have got stuck with either Petrov or Grosjean and would have definitely won the championships. Anyone starting from middle of the pack, is always prone to getting screwed, that's just how life is in that part of the grid.

[iotar__]

The F2012, for instance, was subject to the biggest competitive turnaround I've ever seen. It went from 2.5s off the pace in preseason testing to a stone's throw away from a World Championship (which it could have delivered were it not for outside influences, like Grosjean's eerily accurate impression of a bull in a china shop at Spa).

The car was never stone's throw from a championship despite performance turnaround. It was only in contention for numerous as you described "outside influences", the prime example of those is two DNFs (including Vettel's who was winning easily at the time) and a safety car in Valencia. RB won 4 out 7 of the last races, Vettel's penalty In AD (another "outside influence") and only driving (USA) stopped them winning another 2 (or at least challenging in AD) whereas Ferrari wasn't even in contention there. RB was clearly in front in Brazil too. You can add three rain influenced races and Hamilton's reliability to those outside circumstances that don't make Ferrari 2012 car any faster.

It's OT but it's baffling to see this claim so many times, I feel like whoever makes and upvotes it (that's how much those points here are worth) watched some different 2012 season. The season that included Ferrari losing to Williams after leading the race and to Force India more or less on merit.

[evered7]

The car was never stone's throw from a championship despite performance turnaround. It was only in contention for numerous as you described "outside influences", the prime example of those is two DNFs (including Vettel's who was winning easily at the time) and a safety car in Valencia. RB won 4 out 7 of the last races, Vettel's penalty In AD (another "outside influence") and only driving (USA) stopped them winning another 2 (or at least challenging in AD) whereas Ferrari wasn't even in contention there. RB was clearly in front in Brazil too. You can add three rain influenced races and Hamilton's reliability to those outside circumstances that don't make Ferrari 2012 car any faster.

It's OT but it's baffling to see this claim so many times, I feel like whoever makes and upvotes it (that's how much those points here are worth) watched some different 2012 season. The season that included Ferrari losing to Williams after leading the race and to Force India more or less on merit.

Vettel finished with 281 points and Alonso with 278. That is a stone throw away from winning a championship. Alonso finished on the podium for 7 of the last 8 races. He couldn't have done it without the car below him being capable of such speeds.

As in any season, outside influences will always be there and need to be considered as a factor. From not qualifying for Q3 in Australia to being 3 points away from a WDC is quite a turnaround for a team that is not able to develop their car in-season.

Most are now soundly accusing Renault of not being able to provide an engine that won't blow up anytime in the race. Same for Honda. But then it is important to see how reliable Alonso's car was in 2012 and that is thanks to Ferrari. He had reliability and pace to fight for the championship but for a certain Grosjean crashing his party.

And Ferrari could have won the Spanish GP as well if they had covered the undercut from Williams or if Alonso managed to dispatch Pic sooner.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Vettel finished with 281 points and Alonso with 278. That is a stone throw away from winning a championship. Alonso finished on the podium for 7 of the last 8 races. He couldn't have done it without the car below him being capable of such speeds.

He didn't won. By completely ignoring the reality of situations if you want to hang yourself to points difference and want to believe it was a competitive machine, then you are your man.

As in any season, outside influences will always be there and need to be considered as a factor. From not qualifying for Q3 in Australia to being 3 points away from a WDC is quite a turnaround for a team that is not able to develop their car in-season.

Despite so many factors affecting Lewis last year, he still won. That is because the car was top notch. Alonso didn't, because he didn't had a car to win.

Most are now soundly accusing Renault of not being able to provide an engine that won't blow up anytime in the race. Same for Honda. But then it is important to see how reliable Alonso's car was in 2012 and that is thanks to Ferrari. He had reliability and pace to fight for the championship but for a certain Grosjean crashing his party.

Like Newey had mentioned somewhere, there are two ways of creating a car. Highly reliable, where you compromise pace and think of concentrating on pace later AND A Fast car, where you compromise on reliability. Ferrari always went in first direction, but never had the might to add pace to it. Ultimately a Fast and Fragile car kept winning the championships.

And Ferrari could have won the Spanish GP as well if they had covered the undercut from Williams or if Alonso managed to dispatch Pic sooner.

Look at this way, if they had pace to beat everyone, they shouldn't have been in that situation.

Ultimately, you can keep harping on different versions of same reality, keep defending for eternity. The fact will always remain that, in the last many years, Ferrari hasn't managed to create Championship winning cars, PURELY ON MERIT. It was not then, it isn't today. Based on that, it doesn't seem for tomorrow either.

[Thunder]

Vettel finished with 281 points and Alonso with 278. That is a stone throw away from winning a championship. Alonso finished on the podium for 7 of the last 8 races. He couldn't have done it without the car below him being capable of such speeds.

He didn't won. By completely ignoring the reality of situations if you want to hang yourself to points difference and want to believe it was a competitive machine, then you are your man.

Exactly.
The following quote goes for losing too.....

[Vasconia]

Historically, in-season development has actually been Ferrari's greatest strength, probably because that aspect of the sport tends to correlate more with a team's available resources than with creativity. The F2012, for instance, was subject to the biggest competitive turnaround I've ever seen. It went from 2.5s off the pace in preseason testing to a stone's throw away from a World Championship (which it could have delivered were it not for outside influences, like Grosjean's eerily accurate impression of a bull in a china shop at Spa).

Well that used to be true when Michael was in Ferrari and they were free to run all the kilometers they wanted in Fiorano. After that Ferrari has (almost) never made a great improvement during the season.

In 2012 the Ferrari was good managing the tyres and RB was very irregular during the first races, but it was never the best car. After the summer RB introduced a great package and improved the car a lot, Ferrari did not. And we can say the same in 2010(at least the kept the same level), 2011,2013 and 2014.

By the way Ferrari has announced that they will start focusing on the 2016 car very soon.

[evered7]

He didn't won. By completely ignoring the reality of situations if you want to hang yourself to points difference and want to believe it was a competitive machine, then you are your man.

The point wasn't if Ferrari had a pure pace machine but if they can develop the car in-season. So he didn't win, but this sure proves Ferrari made the car better over the season.

Despite so many factors affecting Lewis last year, he still won. That is because the car was top notch. Alonso didn't, because he didn't had a car to win.

Correct! He won since he had a 'very' fast car. Therefore there is acknowledgement that the 'factors' are in play no matter how fast a car is. It can be detrimental to a team and incremental to another which is what Alonso experienced in the first half of 2012.

Like Newey had mentioned somewhere, there are two ways of creating a car. Highly reliable, where you compromise pace and think of concentrating on pace later AND A Fast car, where you compromise on reliability. Ferrari always went in first direction, but never had the might to add pace to it. Ultimately a Fast and Fragile car kept winning the championships.

Bhall already mentioned the issues with recent Ferrari teams. They lack creativity but they are able to do in-season development once they identify areas of improvement as they have the resources. With Allison in charge, maybe they will get more creative next season. They have already introduced an innovative cooling package compared to other cars on the field.
Being reliable doesn't mean they were slow, just that they were not fastest. Had Alonso been able to not crash in Monaco or have a jump start in China, he might have as well won in 2010 itself. These are again the 'factors' that we were mentioning but this time in favor for Ferrari's argument.

Look at this way, if they had pace to beat everyone, they shouldn't have been in that situation.

Ultimately, you can keep harping on different versions of same reality, keep defending for eternity. The fact will always remain that, in the last many years, Ferrari hasn't managed to create Championship winning cars, PURELY ON MERIT. It was not then, it isn't today. Based on that, it doesn't seem for tomorrow either.

Oh! the irony! The table doesn't lie. At the end of the season Ferrari were only 3/4 points from claiming the WDC. They were close in 2010 as well. Alonso might not want 'close' but that is not what we were discussing in the first place.

Maybe this will stop the 'complete driver' hype. Alonso as well wants a car that is the ace of the field so that he can romp home to victories, something he accused Vettel of every time he won a race/title. In the end he is no different as well.

[turbof1]

In all honesty, the 2010 WDC could have gone to 5 different drivers if we are going to reverse factors outside the car. Ferrari, Mclaren and Red Bull were that close to eachother. Ferrari indeed had a very good car back then.

In my view, the F2012 was not a championship winning car yet came very close to actually winning it. I have to grant GPR-A that: it wasn't a championship winning one. Yes Ferrari managed to improve that car massively, but in the end it did not have the pace of a red bull or mclaren, generally speaking. The F10 on the other hand was what I want to call a "championship-challenger" car, being on roughly equal ground with the 2010 mclaren and the 2010 red bull.

The last few years have been difficult, granted that, but there were factors too that weren't exactly in their favour. The F138 too was a championship-challenger car right until it got decided to change the compound. The car was designed around the pirelli tyres, and it handled those to perfection, as seen during the 2013 Spain Grand Prix. But when that parameter changed, it changed a car that was so carefully designed around the previous compound, and made it pretty useless.

Statistics are great, but unlike many people want to make it believe, they aren't neutral. Numbers should never be taken just on face value.

If we dial it back to in-season development: Ferrari struggled with correlation recent years. They were able infact to create updates, but not able to tell if they did what was intended. It's so important to note that they introduced such a big package change yet kept the upgrades on the car the next race. Whatever it was intending to bring, Ferrari got to confirm they did what was intended. I think that's very crucial, as it solves their core-weakness.

Ferrari is doing very well in my view, and this is where I firmly believe GPR-A is way too negative, borderline unreasonable infact: who was expecting any other team than Mercedes challenging for the world title? You can't just erase those 2 seconds a lap within a year. Remember back in the 2000's? Everyone else was trialling Ferrari year after year, because that one car that started it all had such an advantage and because ferrari kept developing, it was impossible to nullify the gap. But they did manage to cut the gap by a big amount. What did the other teams? Williams, Red Bull, Mclaren? The gap towards Mercedes has got bigger for each and every of those teams. Just saying "they aren't beating mercedes, and they haven't beaten the championship winning car in years" is totally ignorant to the huge jump and massive effort the team made.

All things considered, the effort Ferrari put it in is certainly championship-worthy. They have a car to built on, a team to built and certainly the resources to built on. Next year they'll be even closer to Mercedes, perhaps being on equal grounds even.