Mercedes Power Unit - finally, the price revealed

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
LookBackTime
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Joined: 19 Feb 2013, 20:33

Mercedes Power Unit - finally, the price revealed

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...

Another interesting rebuke from Wolff is the cost of the new engine supply program. With many news reports suggesting the cost of a power unit supply program is around $30 million, Wolff says this is wrong:

“The old engines were somewhere between €10 million ($11 million) and €14 million ($16 million). If you had a Mercedes engine the price was around €14 million ($16 million), today you are around €16.5 million ($19 million). The wrong figures are flying around. I would say that if you look at the complete market, including our competitors and us, it costs between €15 million ($17 million) and €17 million ($19 million) – it’s about 15 to 20% more for the new generation of hybrid power units. I don’t know where the other figures come from. They are wrong numbers.”
On one hand you have to suggest that the leader of Mercedes AMG Petronas would know what he sells his engines for but on the other hand, teams such as Force India—a Mercedes customer—have suggested the costs are much higher than this.

Source:

http://www.formula1blog.com/f1-news/haa ... e-in-2016/

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mep
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Sure Wolff knows the correct figures but I still question if he is a trustworthy source. He has his own agenda and tries to sell figures that fit his interest to keep the current engines.

He also said that the current cars are just 2 slower than they used to be in the fastest years. This statement is easy to check for everybody. In some tracks they might be just 2 seconds down for 1 qualifying lap but in the race they are down by around 6 to 8 seconds. Also worth mentioning that in the old days the race laps where continuously on a high level whereas today they just do a few quick laps before and after the pit stops.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit - finally, the price revealed

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LookBackTime wrote:...

Another interesting rebuke from Wolff is the cost of the new engine supply program. With many news reports suggesting the cost of a power unit supply program is around $30 million, Wolff says this is wrong:

“The old engines were somewhere between €10 million ($11 million) and €14 million ($16 million). If you had a Mercedes engine the price was around €14 million ($16 million), today you are around €16.5 million ($19 million). The wrong figures are flying around. I would say that if you look at the complete market, including our competitors and us, it costs between €15 million ($17 million) and €17 million ($19 million) – it’s about 15 to 20% more for the new generation of hybrid power units. I don’t know where the other figures come from. They are wrong numbers.”
On one hand you have to suggest that the leader of Mercedes AMG Petronas would know what he sells his engines for but on the other hand, teams such as Force India—a Mercedes customer—have suggested the costs are much higher than this.

Source:

http://www.formula1blog.com/f1-news/haa ... e-in-2016/

Sounds about right. There are less engines used per year too.
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ringo
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit - finally, the price revealed

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Woff is being a bit tricky.

20% more for 50% less power units. That's effectively 2.4 times as expensive or 140% more. So the other teams are correct.
It's really 10 million euro cheapest unit x 2.4 = 24 million euro for the cheapest unit if we normalize from an 8 to 4 engine unit program.
it would be 14 x 2.4 = 33.6 million euro for the most expensive unit, the Mercedes. So Wolf is being a bit deceiving.
For Sure!!

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

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Surely the important figure is price-per-season for your engines, not unit price. Sure, on unit price the new units aren't cheap but over a season the cost difference isn't too bad. That's the joy of figures - you can make them read more than one way which is what both sides of the argument are doing. Everyone has an agenda - the trick is seeing it before backing a side.
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xxChrisxx
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Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 19:22

Re: Mercedes Power Unit - finally, the price revealed

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ringo wrote:Woff is being a bit tricky.

20% more for 50% less power units. That's effectively 2.4 times as expensive or 140% more. So the other teams are correct.
It's really 10 million euro cheapest unit x 2.4 = 24 million euro for the cheapest unit if we normalize from an 8 to 4 engine unit program.
it would be 14 x 2.4 = 33.6 million euro for the most expensive unit, the Mercedes. So Wolf is being a bit deceiving.
Surely that only matters if teams pay per unit. If it's for a seasons supply of power trains, the cost per unit is irrelevant.

Teams used to spend approx 15 million on the order of 100s of power units a season. When restrictions came in, then they spent the same on 20, then 8, then 5 now on 4.

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SiLo
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit - finally, the price revealed

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xxChrisxx wrote:
ringo wrote:Woff is being a bit tricky.

20% more for 50% less power units. That's effectively 2.4 times as expensive or 140% more. So the other teams are correct.
It's really 10 million euro cheapest unit x 2.4 = 24 million euro for the cheapest unit if we normalize from an 8 to 4 engine unit program.
it would be 14 x 2.4 = 33.6 million euro for the most expensive unit, the Mercedes. So Wolf is being a bit deceiving.
Surely that only matters if teams pay per unit. If it's for a seasons supply of power trains, the cost per unit is irrelevant.

Teams used to spend approx 15 million on the order of 100s of power units a season. When restrictions came in, then they spent the same on 20, then 8, then 5 now on 4.
Shame we don't know how much Mercedes spent on R&D for those engines.
Felipe Baby!

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RicME85
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Thats the thing isnt it, the engines are maligned for being expensive but it isnt the actual building of the engines that is expensive, its the recuperation of R&D that drives the price. Same happens in the pharmaceutical world, billions is spent on making cancer drugs etc but then when they come to market are too expensive for governments etc to actually buy because of the amount spent in R&D

Facts Only
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit - finally, the price revealed

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LookBackTime wrote:...

but on the other hand, teams such as Force India—a Mercedes customer—have suggested the costs are much higher than this.

FIF1 also get their gearboxes from Merc' , likely its all priced up as one yearly contract which may be the higher price they are talking about.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

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ringo
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What constitutes an engine "program"?
4 race units with 4 additional for failures and any additional after that at cost?
For Sure!!

Gaz.
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Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 09:53

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What's Toto's idea of engine supply? Just the PU in a crate?

The $30m figures came from here:

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/06 ... 1-engines/

PU, gearbox, lubricants & support for $26m according to that article, it just confuses things further.
Forza Jules

Wayne DR
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Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 01:07

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xxChrisxx wrote:Teams used to spend approx 15 million on the order of 100s of power units a season. When restrictions came in, then they spent the same on 20, then 8, then 5 now on 4.
It would be great to know how many engines get dyno tested to destruction during the season. I imagine they make AT LEAST the same number of dyno test engines as race engines that they supply to their teams.

Honda will probably use between 14 and 16 race engines this year - with penalties obviously. My guess is that they would be dyno testing say one or two extra engines per week, that would be an extra 60 engines over a 20 week season...

So the manufacturers are still using upwards of 75 engines per season, they just aren't taken to the track...

xxChrisxx
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Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 19:22

Re: Mercedes Power Unit - finally, the price revealed

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Gaz. wrote:What's Toto's idea of engine supply? Just the PU in a crate?
Well if one is talking about 'engine supply'. Then a power unit arriving in a crate is about right.
Gaz. wrote: The $30m figures came from here:
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/06 ... 1-engines/
PU, gearbox, lubricants & support for $26m according to that article, it just confuses things further.
If you take the 2m for lubricants and 9m for the red bull gearbox as representative. Then you get about 14m for the power unit. So the numbers aren't a million miles out, and *shock* a full power train costs more than an engine in a box.

The transmission and lubricants will be on the same order of cost as the V8s. So the actual 'to-go-racing' costs for the new power train from Mercedes seem to be fairly competitive with the V8.
So the manufacturers are still using upwards of 75 engines per season, they just aren't taken to the track...
Back when they used to scrap an engine after every session into a mountain of inconel, titanium, beryllium, etc, it was easy for a customer to see where their cash was going. Now it's hidden in development, it's easier to complain about the cost. In general power units are far more durable and reliable than they used to be.

Vortex37
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Joined: 18 Mar 2012, 20:53

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SiLo wrote: Shame we don't know how much Mercedes spent on R&D for those engines.
So get out your calculator and check the accounts. :P

Wayne DR
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Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 01:07

Re: Mercedes Power Unit - finally, the price revealed

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xxChrisxx wrote:
So the manufacturers are still using upwards of 75 engines per season, they just aren't taken to the track...
Back when they used to scrap an engine after every session into a mountain of inconel, titanium, beryllium, etc, it was easy for a customer to see where their cash was going. Now it's hidden in development, it's easier to complain about the cost. In general power units are far more durable and reliable than they used to be.
I understand the increased reliability bit, but each manufacturer will still be doing an enormous amount of in-season dyno testing away from the track to refine their operating limits for components, and do R&D to improve the PU and find more power and efficiency.

Say each PU does 5,000kms in its practice/quali/race life. It is pointless to leave more than 100kms of wear unused in the PU, it can be run harder and develop more hp...

So yes, the PUs are far more reliable, but they are still run to within an inch of destruction.