Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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Jef Patat
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Joined: 06 May 2011, 14:40

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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Redragon wrote:If I recall well Button statement was done after qualy, he mentioned that the problem he had on the car would have gave him the 0.3 seconds to qualify for Q2 because it is what the problem deficit on time was just on Hungarian straight, as Turbo1 says, I think there is a general confusion about all lap, hp, etc...
These are the exact words that are referred to:

Smokes
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Joined: 30 Mar 2010, 17:47

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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j.yank wrote:OK, taking into account all criticism on the calculator approach, let see what we will have if put that MH have 80 hp or 120 hp down from Mercedes. The Rosberg speed trap of 317.4 km/h can be emulated pretty close with SL of 790 m, CES of 150 km/h (latest readings on FIA site), CFA = 1.312, CDA = 1.02, DTL = 7%, and power of 860 hp. Let assume that MH has all of these settings except that the power is 80 hp down - 780 hp. In this case the calculated speed trap is coming at 307.33 km/h which is only 2.3 km/h off from the actual speed trap of Alonso (309.6 km/h) and almost the same like Button speed trap which is 307.6 km/h. Now, let see what will happen if we put 740 (120 down) hp instead of 780. The calculated speed trap in this case is 302.02 km/h. To match the real speed traps we have to lower the CDA to 0.93 OR to make the CFA 1.2 OR to put DTL to 1%. 1% DTL is clearly impossible, 1.2 CFA can not be achieved with these FIA rules, 0.93 CDA is so low for this circuit that MH will loss all chances against other teams even in the low speed corners. So, the best guess is that 80 hp difference betwenn MH and Mercedes is much more realistic than 120 not to speak about 130 or 160 hp.
This data means nothing with out the gear position and engine revs at the speed trap. if the Honda PU is running less than the rev limit at the speed trap it may show there is not enough torque to accelerate the car to peak revs or the speed trap position is not where to car reaches peak revs. this need to be done in Comparison to the other engines at the same speed trap.

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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Smokes wrote: This data means nothing with out the gear position and engine revs at the speed trap. if the Honda PU is running less than the rev limit at the speed trap it may show there is not enough torque to accelerate the car to peak revs or the speed trap position is not where to car reaches peak revs. this need to be done in Comparison to the other engines at the same speed trap.
Rev limit? This again? #-o No engine or team on the grid comes close to any kind of rev limit since V6 turbo was implemented last year.

j.yank
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Joined: 08 Jul 2015, 13:45

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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Jef Patat wrote:
j.yank wrote: My estimation is only for the straight. I do this with this calculator: http://www.baranidesign.com/acceleratio ... ation.html
Nice. I also not this quote on that site:
Remember: --- IN = --- OUT
Could you share with us an estimate of the error propagation on the numbers used? I.e. how far of will the result be depending on the errors of the numbers you put in?
Good question. However, first we have to ask what could be the magnitude of the error? This depends from the circuit but I will speak about Hungaroring

About CFA: as I said, I am using what other people accept for F1 car - about 1.3 m2. One thousand of this will give you less than 1 hp, one hundred will give about 5 hp, one tenth about 60 hp. However, because of the FIA regulations this is very hard to believe that there would be significant differences between the teams. I don't expect more than few hundreds. There is very interesting issue regarding MH - what is the impact of "size zero" concept on CFA? If they have managed to gain a tenth this will be a huge advantage. In this case the claiming for 120 hp difference could be real.

About CDA: this is the parameter with the greatest impact: one hundred gives about 7-8 hp. However, this a parameter that is specific to each circuit and all teams are trying to fit into very narrow range for any given circuit.

DTL: I think that we can accept this as almost a constant. In this case, if we are trying to estimate the difference, not the exact numbers, this will be not so important. However, values above 9% would require unrealistic ICE efficiency, values below 7% also seems unrealistic given the problems that all teams have with delivering the energy to the wheels.

I think that many people are saying that these values could be very random (throwing numbers), not reliable, but actually they have relatively narrow ranges of possible errors. At least, I think so.

Jef Patat
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Joined: 06 May 2011, 14:40

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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I'm no expert at the calculations you do but they seem quite complex. The thing with doubtfull input is that it tends to make the output even more doubtfull. We've seen that site mentioned a couple of times by now. Not only by you but also by others. I see multiple multiplications/divisions/substrations and I think if one were to do some propper error analysis on that site it would really aid to interpret the results. (And for clarity I mean this with error analysis: point 4: http://phys.columbia.edu/~tutorial/). With errors you mention in your last post I think it's quite easy to see that the output can vary easilly by 10%. That would accumulate to an easy 100hp error.

However, in all fairness, I don't think the exact errors are of importance in your calculations but the errors in your values between the two teams that you compare. I don't know how to phrase this exactly as English is not my native language. For example transmission loss. It doesn't really matter if it' s 7 or 9%, I think we can assume that if merc has for example 7 we can quite safely consider MCL to be at a similar value, it won't be 10%. And since you are doing a comparison the error on that value becomes much smaller.


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mclaren111
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Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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Amus:
From the back is good to see how the whole series of fins cooperate to direct the flow of air to the outside.
Image

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diffuser
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In that last shot, that front wing looks like it's at max downforce, right? I can't see how they can raise that any more.

Coefficient
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Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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diffuser wrote:

In that last shot, that front wing looks like it's at max downforce, right? I can't see how they can raise that any more.
Only for the given ride height.
"I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it".

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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mclaren111 wrote:Amus:
From the back is good to see how the whole series of fins cooperate to direct the flow of air to the outside.
http://img1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/McL ... 885777.jpg
From that angle it looks that way but in reality they don't work in series. The one behind the mirror mount probably works with the mount but the three fins on top of the sidepod leading edge are in a line so they can't work together on the same bit of flow. They will generate three vortices that will work to keep the flow attached as it flows over the side of the sidepod.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

McMrocks
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Joined: 14 Apr 2012, 17:58

Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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Coefficient wrote:
diffuser wrote:

In that last shot, that front wing looks like it's at max downforce, right? I can't see how they can raise that any more.
Only for the given ride height.
How do you mean that? Can you please specify.

FiA measures the front wing dimension in relation to the reference plane not the ground

Jef Patat
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Joined: 06 May 2011, 14:40

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Just_a_fan wrote:
mclaren111 wrote:Amus:
From the back is good to see how the whole series of fins cooperate to direct the flow of air to the outside.
http://img1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/McL ... 885777.jpg
From that angle it looks that way but in reality they don't work in series. The one behind the mirror mount probably works with the mount but the three fins on top of the sidepod leading edge are in a line so they can't work together on the same bit of flow. They will generate three vortices that will work to keep the flow attached as it flows over the side of the sidepod.
Correct, there are nice vids about this. For example this one with a plane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXwVyxorvno
and this one from a car in a wind tunnel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsfKATW73g4
and some images:
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/performa ... ortekz.php

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diffuser
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Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
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Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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Coefficient wrote:
diffuser wrote:

In that last shot, that front wing looks like it's at max downforce, right? I can't see how they can raise that any more.
Only for the given ride height.
What I meant is the angle of attack of the front wing. I'm wondering if that is at it's max? I didn't think that has anything to do with ride height.

Coefficient
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The downforce generated by the wing can be altered by changing ride height. So, it may be that the team chose to run maximum angle of attack and trim the down force back a bit by increasing ride height by a millimetre or so. You never really know the setup from looking at wing setttings.
"I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it".

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ringo
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Re: Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

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One thing i notice about Mclaren is that they do not use the winglets above the sidepod openings like the other teams. I wonder why is this so?
Maybe they add too much drag.
For Sure!!

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