Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Vortex37
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Joined: 18 Mar 2012, 20:53

Re: Honda Power Unit

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piast9 wrote:Do You really think that Honda have shown real parts at these photos / video? I seriously doubt it. In my opinion what we see is some turbocharger. Maybe one of the designs that were tested years ago or a real part but from another application.
I think you might be correct. They are probably doing what Mercedes did with their early engine graphic.

Image

If we were to accept, that everything that is in the video is real..... :? Then looking at the cutaway drawing above, I would say that the photo of the tech holding up the housing, is possibly showing only half of the turbine housing. Though it might just be the mounting for the connecting spindle to the compressor. Also it might contain sensors. Axial flow? The other end is more interesting.

Iain.

wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Honda Power Unit

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WilliamsF1 wrote:There is a very smooth transition from 3.65 bar to 1.5 bar turbo speed 111K to 60K without spike which would be expected during the downshift. How does this work?
MGUH

gruntguru
563
Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Honda Power Unit

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WilliamsF1 wrote:So there is no wastegate on the housing; does Honda run with a wastegate?

Also looking at the data from the Canadian GP at 31.3 min

There is a very smooth transition from 3.65 bar to 1.5 bar turbo speed 111K to 60K without spike which would be expected during the downshift. How does this work?
The wastegate or wastegates would not be integrated into the turbine housing, rather having separate connections to the high and low pressure exhaust ducting.

Turbo speed transitions can be made at almost any rate desired using the MGUH to brake or accelerate the shaft.
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Tommy Cookers
617
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Honda Power Unit

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turbo speed transitions ie 'time constant' can't be better than around 100 millisec ?
there's a lot of inertial load
(I once did this sort of design calculation for a living)

the time constant of the combined ICE and permanently slaved mgu-k will be maybe 25 millisec ?
as with N/A F1 the shifting phases will be managed by modulation of ignition, fuelling, and throttle plates
nominally the complete shift takes less than 50 millisec

so managed turbo throttling etc will be used to help the turbo behaviour in the shifting phases ?

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PlatinumZealot
550
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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WilliamsF1 wrote:So there is no wastegate on the housing; does Honda run with a wastegate?

Also looking at the data from the Canadian GP at 31.3 min

There is a very smooth transition from 3.65 bar to 1.5 bar turbo speed 111K to 60K without spike which would be expected during the downshift. How does this work?

Also the data shows the fuel flow at above 101KG/Hr :D
Hard to tell. I am trying to see if there is wastegate pipe connecting to the exhaust pipe. But i see none. If there is a wastegate or two Maybe its exhaust pipe is not connected?
Image
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pgfpro
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Joined: 26 Dec 2011, 23:11
Location: Coeur d' Alene ID

Re: Honda Power Unit

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ringo wrote:
pgfpro wrote:
I agree with you on this one. From all the testing I have been doing on my own compound system and running numbers on my engine simulator high intake boost numbers can be your friend. Keeping in mind high intake boost numbers don't always mean more output power.;)
Why is that so?
And have you been using these numbers across your rev range. Keep in mind this high boost condition is very momentary on the Honda Engine.
I'm not disagreeing with the use of such high boost pressure in some cases. I just believe that most of the time it's one bar less, with more conventional A:F levels for max power.
What is your support of excessive air, knowing well that more power is required to pump this air resulting in higher temperatures?
The reason I think its so is because as you approach the upper rpm fuel limit you can load the turbo with the MGUH and lean the A/F ratio and pull more energy from the turbo. If you run it full rich you will be hitting the fuel limit at a lower boost with less energy. The difference from my calculations are about 20HP.

So I think were on the same page?
Upper rpm only.
Lean condition only.

Also this part of discussions is at WOT. There are some other tricks I can see the MGUH being a generator also.
building the perfect beast

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Ok i understand what you are suggesting now. I figured more or less the higher A:F are workable, but i didn't really see reasons. But from this video they clearly are doing this. It would be interesting to see their after intercooler temperatures.
It's very sad that after a year and a half we still have little or no official information from the engine makers about these engines.
Even the V8's are still somewhat shrouded in mystery.
For Sure!!

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pgfpro
75
Joined: 26 Dec 2011, 23:11
Location: Coeur d' Alene ID

Re: Honda Power Unit

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ringo wrote:Ok i understand what you are suggesting now. I figured more or less the higher A:F are workable, but i didn't really see reasons. But from this video they clearly are doing this. It would be interesting to see their after intercooler temperatures.
It's very sad that after a year and a half we still have little or no official information from the engine makers about these engines.
Even the V8's are still somewhat shrouded in mystery.
I'm with you on this one!!! I can't believe we don't have any info on these power units yet???
building the perfect beast

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Honda Power Unit

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James Allen said the PU is about 120hp down on the Mercedes and the upgrade is expected to bring around 50hp to Spa. He also stated that even though Honda was finally confident in running the PU at full power at the last race (guessing qualification), the ERS was still dialed back a bit during the race.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/08/h ... beginning/
Honda!

GoranF1
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Joined: 16 Dec 2014, 12:53
Location: Zagreb,Croatia
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Thanks @Dren for that link,Omnicorse said recently that it will be 15Bhp but it is Omnicorse after all.
Allen is a bit more reaible i would say.
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PlatinumZealot
550
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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One thing I like about these regs, it is all about who can make the most power out of every single drop of fuel and have it run for 5 races.

It is not hard to make 650 horsepower out of a 1.6 Litre engine. Likewise it is not hard to make 160 hp from a DC motor... but can you do these things with a fuel limit and small packaging size respectively and make it work at near full duty for 2000 km?? That is the difficult part.
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Postmoe
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Joined: 23 Mar 2012, 16:57

Re: Honda Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:One thing I like about these regs, it is all about who can make the most power out of every single drop of fuel and have it run for 5 races.

It is not hard to make 650 horsepower out of a 1.6 Litre engine. Likewise it is not hard to make 160 hp from a DC motor... but can you do these things with a fuel limit and small packaging size respectively and make it work at near full duty for 2000 km?? That is the difficult part.

And almost without testing. This is the critical part. Fuel efficency would be way easier to reach with more testing.

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mclaren111
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Joined: 06 Apr 2014, 10:49
Location: Shithole - South Africa

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Stefan Johansson:
And he warned that even when Honda dominated with McLaren in the Senna-Prost era, the Japanese marque worked hard in F1 for several years before that.

“The early days were no walk in the park,” said Johansson on his blog. “I know that very well as I drove the first car they entered in 1983 with Spirit and the scenario was not that much different than it is today.”
I just hope they can perform a miracle for next year over the Winter break (Summer break where I am) :?: :!:

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Blackout
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Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 04:12

Re: Honda Power Unit

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ajnšpric_pumpa wrote:Thanks @Dren for that link,Omnicorse said recently that it will be 15Bhp but it is Omnicorse after all.
Allen is a bit more reaible i would say.
James Allen reliable? :lol:
Arai said 15hp.

radosav
23
Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 20:46

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Blackout wrote:
ajnšpric_pumpa wrote:Thanks @Dren for that link,Omnicorse said recently that it will be 15Bhp but it is Omnicorse after all.
Allen is a bit more reaible i would say.
James Allen reliable? :lol:
Arai said 15hp.
Well if Arai was speaking in english it may be that people didn't understand him cause fifteen and fifty sound very similar with his poor english! :D

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