Close look at Vettel's Tire before the moment...

[ME4ME]

But how many G's are those type of cars doing at those type of circuits, and how frequently? (genuine question, my knowledge of these categories isn't that substantial.) By that I mean acceleration, braking and lateral force through corners. Even though, as you mention, they're doing higher speeds, I don't think they are putting as much stress on the tires as an competitive F1 car.

They get to a little over 3 G's in NASCAR, but you need to keep in mind that the cars are over twice as heavy.

They can reach 5.5 G's in IndyCar, and pull them for a much longer period of time than they do in F1. A couple of years ago, they canceled a race in Texas, because drivers where passing out. They where pulling 5.5 G's for 20 seconds at a time, and that's well into fighter pilot g-suit territory.

Thanks for the info. I stand corrected. That validates Jersey Tom's point then.

[Jersey Tom]

Pirellis seem to be getting a bad name for all these failures. I wonder how many could be avoided with more testing. All the previous manufacturers had the luxury of unlimited testing.

You don't find tire durability limits with track testing. You do that in the lab. The teams all have tons of data from every race - more than enough to give Pirelli the data they'd need to do extensive lab durability testing and development.

[Just_a_fan]

I expect that Pirelli will, from now on, be publishing very conservative "maximum recommended lap" figures and making sure it's not just the teams that get to see them. Expect to see them effectively recommending that every race is at least two stops. It won't change the tyres but it will publicly put the onus back on to the teams.

[PhillipM]

And kill what little variety in strategy we had once again

[dans79]

I expect that Pirelli will, from now on, be publishing very conservative "maximum recommended lap" figures and making sure it's not just the teams that get to see them. Expect to see them effectively recommending that every race is at least two stops. It won't change the tyres but it will publicly put the onus back on to the teams.

That's the problem with Pirelli, everything is a recommendation with them. Lap limits, tire pressures, camber angle etc should be absolutes, and when violated should result in sanctions by the FIA.

[TAG]

And kill what little variety in strategy we had once again

Not really, as long as they don't blame Pirelli when the strategy doesn't work out. In Malaysia it was all about the SF-15Tbeing superb on tires, no credit given to Pirelli whatsoever. The Spa situation was no different, just the result nobody wanted. A long shot tire strategy should be still doable, but it should be a long shot that a team can try.

To me, Vettel didn't look like a guy conserving tires... let's see what Pirelli has to report this weekend.

[Edax]

I love how we demand that bags of rubber spinning around at 300 kph never ever fail.

Do I expect 0.00% failure rate in F1 racing? No. But in my mind - in the grand scheme of things it's just not that severe on tire durability. F1's had refueling come and go over the years, and likewise there have been years of single supplier vs. tire war. Has there ever been as much tire drama (be it wear and marbles, delaminating treads, failing carcass...) as the Pirelli years? Honest question - I can't speak to the 90's or early 00's. Don't really recall there being much drama during the Bridgestone era though.

Just some food for thought.

want to go back to Michelin? (F1 2005)



or Goodyear? (F1 1986)

"We don't know what happened," said Goodyear's racing manager, Lee Gaug. "At first we thought Nigel was touched, but he said he wasn't. They had all planned to stop for a change until we saw Prost's tyres, and then our projection was that they could do 82 laps without stopping. There was no reason to call Mansell in."

After Rosberg's tyre went the Williams team called Mansell in, but before he reached the pits his tyre blew. He did well to control the car as it slewed across the straight. Piquet, the leader, was immediately called in to change his tyres for safety reasons, and Prost was left in front.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2 ... nsell-1986

(Nascar 2015)

SONOMA, Calif. – Tire issues affecting at least four NASCAR Sprint Cup Series teams during Sunday's Toyota/SaveMart 350 were the result of the soft compound and harsh race conditions, according to Goodyear.According to a Goodyear spokesperson, the tire being used for Sunday's race was on the softest end of the range of compounds. Compared to what was used previously at Sonoma, this tire featured increased thickness for improved wear, however some tires were showing signs of tearing.

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/ ... onoma.html

or Yokohama (WTCC 2012)

"We had eight cars suffer punctures in Salzburgring," Sekiguchi told AUTOSPORT. "We spoke with the teams, and we are just as disappointed as they are, but we knew it could happen. The characteristics of the circuit played a big part in the problems as it is a very tough track for front-wheel drive touring cars.

"I don't think in Portimao we will have these problems, but we will advise teams not too run too much camber or too low pressure."

While Yokohama will not modify its tyres before Portimao owing to time constraints and a pre-arranged agreement with the FIA not to change its tyre in-season, Sekiguchi admitted he would evaluate making modifications if the Salzburgring returned to next year's WTCC calendar.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100000

These are just some examples that I dug up from memory, there are bound to be more.

I don't know how hard it is to make a lasting tire, but all manufactures seem to get it wrong from time to time.

.

[countersteer]

To illustrate Jersey Tom's point... Adrian Fernandez qualifying at Texas Motor Speedway in 2001.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/lpGsTyv96Rk[/youtube]

[djos]

Well Pirelli released a statement they have concluded their investigation - and wait for the Italian GP to release the information.

Which is very peculiar. Pirelli usually has their statements in public minutes after accidents. I have a hunch, and only a hunch so please do not take my word for it, they actually found a structural weakness which gets exposed under the right circumstances. It looks like they want the fia and the teams together to plea for a change.

That bulge in the sidewall sure looked liked a structural weakness to me!

[Just_a_fan]

I expect that Pirelli will, from now on, be publishing very conservative "maximum recommended lap" figures and making sure it's not just the teams that get to see them. Expect to see them effectively recommending that every race is at least two stops. It won't change the tyres but it will publicly put the onus back on to the teams.

That's the problem with Pirelli, everything is a recommendation with them. Lap limits, tire pressures, camber angle etc should be absolutes, and when violated should result in sanctions by the FIA.

Wasn't this very idea turned down by the FIA?

[dans79]

I expect that Pirelli will, from now on, be publishing very conservative "maximum recommended lap" figures and making sure it's not just the teams that get to see them. Expect to see them effectively recommending that every race is at least two stops. It won't change the tyres but it will publicly put the onus back on to the teams.

That's the problem with Pirelli, everything is a recommendation with them. Lap limits, tire pressures, camber angle etc should be absolutes, and when violated should result in sanctions by the FIA.

Wasn't this very idea turned down by the FIA?

What they proposed wast dumb, It sounds like something a child came up with. Multi million dollar contracts, & millions spent on R&D and this is the best they can come up with?

The proposal put forward a maximum distance equivalent to 50 per cent of the grand prix distance for the prime tyre and 30 per cent for the option.

[Edax]

Well Pirelli released a statement they have concluded their investigation - and wait for the Italian GP to release the information.

Which is very peculiar. Pirelli usually has their statements in public minutes after accidents. I have a hunch, and only a hunch so please do not take my word for it, they actually found a structural weakness which gets exposed under the right circumstances. It looks like they want the fia and the teams together to plea for a change.

Monza with high temperatures can be quite demanding on the tyres.



Perhaps are waiting for the weather forecast to become more accurate before they decide on what actions to take (or not). It can be a case that if conditions are more favorable they get away with "due to the special nature of Spa and the unusual conditions........ ....no effect for the rest of the season.... ......will improve for next year".

[PlatinumZealot]

the headline 'g' figure quoted is presumably the vector sum of the accelerometer array signals (this gives the biggest number)
the (circulatory) physiological effects are essentially driven by the g normal to the track surface (or driver centreline,really)
ie 5 g headline has the effect of maybe 3.5 - 4 g circulation-wise
and the seating position is more favourable in the car than in the plane

pre-breathing on the straight and locking the diaphragm in the corners would allow 7 g (I have done more)
and racers wouldn't notice the tunnel vision, as they have it already

You fly a TomCat?

Do you know a pilot by the name of Bronco Bob?

[PhillipM]

And kill what little variety in strategy we had once again

Not really, as long as they don't blame Pirelli when the strategy doesn't work out. In Malaysia it was all about the SF-15Tbeing superb on tires, no credit given to Pirelli whatsoever. The Spa situation was no different, just the result nobody wanted. A long shot tire strategy should be still doable, but it should be a long shot that a team can try.

To me, Vettel didn't look like a guy conserving tires... let's see what Pirelli has to report this weekend.

He was a guy with 30% of his tread left, so he was doing something right.

[Tommy Cookers]

the headline 'g' figure quoted is presumably the vector sum of the accelerometer array signals (this gives the biggest number)
the (circulatory) physiological effects are essentially driven by the g normal to the track surface (or driver centreline,really)
ie 5 g headline has the effect of maybe 3.5 - 4 g circulation-wise
and the seating position is more favourable in the car than in the plane
pre-breathing on the straight and locking the diaphragm in the corners would allow 7 g (I have done more)
and racers wouldn't notice the tunnel vision, as they have it already

You fly a TomCat?
Do you know a pilot by the name of Bronco Bob?

@PZ
this (amateur flying that anyone can do or at least experience) was in an Extra (230 iirc) which iirc is nominally +12g -12g
so without aids such as g suit as used in Red Bull air races or this plus pressure breathing of oxygen in fighters
but borrowing their physical techniques though trying for various reasons to avoid the aspects that killed Elvis
it helps to be short legged and skinny
several seconds around 7.5 and dabbling with 8 (steady pullup from a power dive starting at maybe 270 mph)
also negative g around 4.5-5 with the smell of blood (this in a -AoA turn) - more than this has potential for damage but not loc
iirc fighters g is now up at +9 -6 but the Tomcat was less

btw - an F15 pilot (when Luftwaffe F15 training was in the USA) told me Erich Hartmann recommended an outside snap roll (in a 109)
after which they lost about 6 F15s before attempts to emulate this were banned