Horsepower of the engines.

[henry]

The MGU-H has two outputs. It can drive the MGU-K or it can charge the ES.

If the ICE is making 610 HP and the MGU-H is sending 60 HP to the ES, what is the efficiency?

What a silly question. The efficiency lies in capturing some of the energy that would otherwise have gone to waste through the exhaust. It needn't go to the ES because it can be sent to the crank shaft via the MGU-k instead, thereby adding to the amount of mechanical work rendered per amount of fuel consumed, increasing the efficiency.

Thanks. But I knew that already.

Not all HP are equal. Those deployed at low speed are more valuable, in terms of lap time, than those at high speed. So it might be useful to charge the ES at the end of one straight to make sure there is plenty of charge for the beginning of the next. Deferred work, if you like.

But my question was more academic really. Just interested in how people view efficiency.

[OO7]

I have attached the reply I received from the involved individual. It's from another well known site. Up till then I believed max output was ICE plus ERS but that would not have explained Mercedes advantage.
Hi, Petroltorque
 
You are not right. 50% is TOTAL, not just ICE.
F1 Mercedes today has (roghly) 830-840 HP.
Ferrari is 30-40 HP less.
Renault 50-70 less.
Honda, I don't know.
 
Story of just ICE having 50% efficiency is science fiction. And that is deliberately placed to mad up opposition and make a smoke.
That ICE efficiency NOT exist.
And difference on ICE alone is in region of
M-B ~ 610-615
F~ 600-605
R~590
 
ERS-Kinetic is fixed at 120 KW
 
Real difference comes from ERS-Heat. There goes also HOW you use this energy, and how you storage it.
Mercedes did something and they are efficient in that.
Shortly, problem is in s/w deployment and Merc did good job on it.
ERS-Heat can make max. 60 HP. After that they brake ICE and diminish power output.
 
But, problem is - all of that HAS NO APPLICATION in road car AT ALL.
 
So, who looks for real racing looking for PU without ERS-Heat.
At the moment Mercedes didn't allow rule changes as they will lose direct advantage.
Shame.
 
If you asking me - all those Hybrid PU is stupidity and PR b/sheat.   
 
And, yes, I am involved in this engines.
 
I think above is enough to make it more obvious for all of us

Petroltorque, unfortunately I don't think this person has much of an idea of what is occurring, nor much knowledge of the technical regulations. Check out the latest post:
http://forums.autosport.com/topic/20113 ... try7429518

[Petroltorque]

I think it best to keep an open mind. I'm not an engineer but read science subject at Uni and peer reviewed enough papers to maintain a questioning mind. Everyone seems happy to believe That Merc can produce over 900bhp but not query how they achieve it. They must b doing something different to get a thermal efficiency of 50%.

[OO7]

I think it best to keep an open mind. I'm not an engineer but read science subject at Uni and peer reviewed enough papers to maintain a questioning mind. Everyone seems happy to believe That Merc can produce over 900bhp but not query how they achieve it. They must b doing something different to get a thermal efficiency of 50%.

After I read the tech regs I could see that Kodza actually raised an interesting point, however I don't think mechanical compounding is being used and in any event it has been outlawed this year.

[nevill3]

Why is the MGU-K output power limited to 160hp?
This figure keeps getting quoted but the way I have interpreted the regulations that figure is the maximum that can be supplied via the Energy Store, but the MGU-H can supply the MGU-K directly with an unlimited amount of energy. So the MGU-K can continually supply an unlimited boost to the crank subject to the operating limits of the Turbo/MGU-H.

Am I mistaken and the regulations governing the maximum rotational speed and torque of the MGU=K result in the 160hp figure quoted as the output of the MGU-K

5.2.3
The MGU-­‐K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft. The rotational speed of the MGU-­‐K may not exceed 50,000rpm. The maximum torque of the MGU-­‐K may not exceed 200Nm. The torque will be referenced to the crankshaft speed and the fixed efficiency correction defined in Article 5.2.2 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-­‐K torque.

It has seemed obvious to me that Mercedes have used an oversized MGU-H because they realised this from the start and have been using the excess/extra exhaust generated power to directly enhance the maximum output of the MGU-K.

[wuzak]

Why is the MGU-K output power limited to 160hp?
This figure keeps getting quoted but the way I have interpreted the regulations that figure is the maximum that can be supplied via the Energy Store, but the MGU-H can supply the MGU-K directly with an unlimited amount of energy. So the MGU-K can continually supply an unlimited boost to the crank subject to the operating limits of the Turbo/MGU-H.

Am I mistaken and the regulations governing the maximum rotational speed and torque of the MGU=K result in the 160hp figure quoted as the output of the MGU-K

5.2.3
The MGU-­‐K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft. The rotational speed of the MGU-­‐K may not exceed 50,000rpm. The maximum torque of the MGU-­‐K may not exceed 200Nm. The torque will be referenced to the crankshaft speed and the fixed efficiency correction defined in Article 5.2.2 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-­‐K torque.

It has seemed obvious to me that Mercedes have used an oversized MGU-H because they realised this from the start and have been using the excess/extra exhaust generated power to directly enhance the maximum output of the MGU-K.

The energy flow diagram in the appendices of the technical regulations clearly define a maximum output of 120kW for the MGUK. This is true whether it is operating as a generator or as a motor.

120kW ~ 160hp.

[nevill3]

Thank you wuzak, it was baffling me why I could see this but no one else could, I had not looked at the energy flow diagram that closely before

[ferkan]

This guy that is being quoted from another forum somehow appears to intentionally write in a way that would make you think he is mentally inadequet but I dont think he is.

[Cold Fussion]

Ah Henry I see where you are coming from but th CRUX is that energy from the ERS-H is NOT limited by the 120Kw MGU-KINETIC it is in addition. So Merc are pushing an Extra 45Kw Lap on Lap on top of the MGU-KINETIC.

If the MGU-K is limited to 120kW and the MGU-H has no capability of powering the wheels, please explain to me how energy transfer from MGU-H to MGU-K is not limited to 120 kW? If the MGU-H can generate more than 120 kW, then the excess can only flow to the ERS and not to the MGU-K. You may not be an engineer but surely you must understand that an electric motor not connected to the wheels cannot power the wheels?

[Chene_Mostert]

Ah Henry I see where you are coming from but th CRUX is that energy from the ERS-H is NOT limited by the 120Kw MGU-KINETIC it is in addition. So Merc are pushing an Extra 45Kw Lap on Lap on top of the MGU-KINETIC.

If the MGU-K is limited to 120kW and the MGU-H has no capability of powering the wheels, please explain to me how energy transfer from MGU-H to MGU-K is not limited to 120 kW? If the MGU-H can generate more than 120 kW, then the excess can only flow to the ERS and not to the MGU-K. You may not be an engineer but surely you must understand that an electric motor not connected to the wheels cannot power the wheels?

Nowhere in the regulation do they specify the output from K to be 120Kw. This is purely calculated from the 4Mj over 33sec that can be used from ES. If you look at the energy flow diagram you see the line from H to K says "unlimited" - that is the trick to "self sustain" mode.

[Petroltorque]

Ah Henry I see where you are coming from but th CRUX is that energy from the ERS-H is NOT limited by the 120Kw MGU-KINETIC it is in addition. So Merc are pushing an Extra 45Kw Lap on Lap on top of the MGU-KINETIC.

If the MGU-K is limited to 120kW and the MGU-H has no capability of powering the wheels, please explain to me how energy transfer from MGU-H to MGU-K is not limited to 120 kW? If the MGU-H can generate more than 120 kW, then the excess can only flow to the ERS and not to the MGU-K. You may not be an engineer but surely you must understand that an electric motor not connected to the wheels cannot power the wheels?

Nowhere in the regulation do they specify the output from K to be 120Kw. This is purely calculated from the 4Mj over 33sec that can be used from ES. If you look at the energy flow diagram you see the line from H to K says "unlimited" - that is the trick to "self sustain" mode.

Precisely, that's how I see it as well. Maybe it's because I sat my A level physics 30 years ago that makes me see it differently.
These PUS are not ICE plus 4MJ battery pack KERS limited to an output of 120Kw. By that thinking Total output is ICE + 120Kw. That's not the case.

[wuzak]

Ah Henry I see where you are coming from but th CRUX is that energy from the ERS-H is NOT limited by the 120Kw MGU-KINETIC it is in addition. So Merc are pushing an Extra 45Kw Lap on Lap on top of the MGU-KINETIC.

If the MGU-K is limited to 120kW and the MGU-H has no capability of powering the wheels, please explain to me how energy transfer from MGU-H to MGU-K is not limited to 120 kW? If the MGU-H can generate more than 120 kW, then the excess can only flow to the ERS and not to the MGU-K. You may not be an engineer but surely you must understand that an electric motor not connected to the wheels cannot power the wheels?

Nowhere in the regulation do they specify the output from K to be 120Kw. This is purely calculated from the 4Mj over 33sec that can be used from ES. If you look at the energy flow diagram you see the line from H to K says "unlimited" - that is the trick to "self sustain" mode.

You have it back to front.

33s is the calculated value.

And the MGUK restriction of 120kW is stated in the regulations.

It is in the energy flow diagram in appendix 3 of the technical regulations.

[Chene_Mostert]

Wuzak
I understand that, but maybe I'm expressing myself in a way that some find difficult to understand.
Lets start with the K.
Nowhere in the regulation is the maximum power capability of the unit specified as 120 Kw, they specify max rpm (50 000) & Max torque (200N.M). Also the INPUT from the es to K is monitored (V x I) and this may not exceed 120KW.
Also remember an electric motor can supply any amount of power, from 0KW up to maximum rating, it is the motor drive(mcu) that supplies the power.
So the 120Kw as it appears on the flow diagram Is the maximum power supplied to the K from the MCU (drive) by taking no more than 4Mj of energy per lap from the es.

The secret to self sustain mode is utilising the unlimited, un-monitored energy recovered from the exhaust by the H and transferring it directly to the K.

[Facts Only]

I have attached the reply I received from the involved individual. It's from another well known site. Up till then I believed max output was ICE plus ERS but that would not have explained Mercedes advantage.
Hi, Petroltorque
 
You are not right. 50% is TOTAL, not just ICE.
F1 Mercedes today has (roghly) 830-840 HP.
Ferrari is 30-40 HP less.
Renault 50-70 less.
Honda, I don't know.
 
Story of just ICE having 50% efficiency is science fiction. And that is deliberately placed to mad up opposition and make a smoke.
That ICE efficiency NOT exist.
And difference on ICE alone is in region of
M-B ~ 610-615
F~ 600-605
R~590
 
ERS-Kinetic is fixed at 120 KW
 
Real difference comes from ERS-Heat. There goes also HOW you use this energy, and how you storage it.
Mercedes did something and they are efficient in that.
Shortly, problem is in s/w deployment and Merc did good job on it.
ERS-Heat can make max. 60 HP. After that they brake ICE and diminish power output.
 
But, problem is - all of that HAS NO APPLICATION in road car AT ALL.
 
So, who looks for real racing looking for PU without ERS-Heat.
At the moment Mercedes didn't allow rule changes as they will lose direct advantage.
Shame.
 
If you asking me - all those Hybrid PU is stupidity and PR b/sheat.   
 
And, yes, I am involved in this engines.
 
I think above is enough to make it more obvious for all of us

Petroltorque, unfortunately I don't think this person has much of an idea of what is occurring, nor much knowledge of the technical regulations. Check out the latest post:
http://forums.autosport.com/topic/20113 ... try7429518

If that guy/girl is in any way involved in the design/build/running of the current F1 engine then I'm Barrack Obama. The stuff she/he writes is complete and utter tripe.

Apparently he/she is giving out their explanations free of charge! Well that's a good thing because anyone who paid for it would want their money back.

There is no second MGUH powered motor, that's for definite. I know that for a fact. As for the application being of no relevance to road cars, well he better tell that to the mid-range OEM I recently worked with who are working on a new series of road car engine with system very similar to what is in F1.

It gave me good chuckle on a Monday morning though.

[hurril]

Wuzak
I understand that, but maybe I'm expressing myself in a way that some find difficult to understand.
Lets start with the K.
Nowhere in the regulation is the maximum power capability of the unit specified as 120 Kw, they specify max rpm (50 000) & Max torque (200N.M). Also the INPUT from the es to K is monitored (V x I) and this may not exceed 120KW.
Also remember an electric motor can supply any amount of power, from 0KW up to maximum rating, it is the motor drive(mcu) that supplies the power.
So the 120Kw as it appears on the flow diagram Is the maximum power supplied to the K from the MCU (drive) by taking no more than 4Mj of energy per lap from the es.

The secret to self sustain mode is utilising the unlimited, un-monitored energy recovered from the exhaust by the H and transferring it directly to the K.

The flow diagram does in fact mention +/- 120kW on the double-arrow between itself and the ICE.