Starting ICE under own power

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
trinidefender
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Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: Starting ICE under own power

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autogyro wrote:Allowing marshals to push the car with the electrics cycling is very dangerous for them.
Even with insulated gloves?

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Starting ICE under own power

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Another proof cars can now start themselves via MGU-K. Kimi's engineer during the hungarian GP:
David Greenwood wrote:We’re going to power cycle the car in the pit lane and change to [soft]. Box this lap, Kimi, box this lap. So the guys will change the tyres. If you go to P0. You will be restarting the car on the MGU-K. So when you’ve stopped go P0, then you go back into P1, then K1 button, P2 to restart the car. So six seconds for the power cycle. So stay in P0 for six seconds, Kimi.

mrluke
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Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 20:31

Re: Starting ICE under own power

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From memory they used the starter for Kimis car in the pits.

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Starting ICE under own power

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Because his mgu-k failed in the first place.

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AnthonyG
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Joined: 03 Mar 2012, 13:16

Re: Starting ICE under own power

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mrluke wrote:From memory they used the starter for Kimis car in the pits.
From the Ferrari team-thread
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Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Starting ICE under own power

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LOL @ kimi trusting the team after all that has happened in the past.

Anyway this pretty much confirms that the Ferrari MGU-K can start the engine.
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amho
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Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:15
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Re: Starting ICE under own power

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trinidefender wrote:Here is a quote by Jenson Button from the McLaren-Honda race report at the 2015 GP at silverstone, "The impact lifted the car up and turned it off. With the engine not running, I had no option but to retire."

It appears from this that there must be a sensor of some sorts that shuts off the engine in the event of a large shunt or if the wheels are lifted off of the ground. This is a very important safety device. Why though, can the 2014 and onwards power units not self start? If they had been able to then maybe jenson would have been able to simply start back up and re-join the race.

Before this generation of power units I can understand the problems with the extra weight of starters etc. Now however, it shouldn't take much more than a software update/new software mode. There could be two ways to start the engine.
1. The clutch is disengaged and since the MGU-K is connected to the crank all it has to do is rotate to a set speed and the engine will start just as if they used the starter mother from the back (hence where some teams have flaps in the back of their diffusers). The clutch is then engaged and the car pulls away and rejoins.
2. Same as number 1 but the clutch stays engaged the car getting up to speed also helps to roll start the car. 120kw should easily be enough for this.

Either I am missing something very obvious or Mclaren-Honda shot themselves in the foot by not including this. Or is there some reg that says once a car shuts off that it is out.
it has two reason:
1- regulation: With the exception of cars starting a race from the pit lane, the MGU-K may only be used during a race start once the car has reached 100km/h.
2-Mgu-k power of 120kw is delivered at high engine speed of 10000-13000 and the torque at rpm of 10000 is equal to 114 n.m and probably these mgu-k motor doesn't have enough torque at low revs to pull engine.
There is no Might or Power except with Allah.

trinidefender
317
Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: Starting ICE under own power

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amho wrote:
trinidefender wrote:Here is a quote by Jenson Button from the McLaren-Honda race report at the 2015 GP at silverstone, "The impact lifted the car up and turned it off. With the engine not running, I had no option but to retire."

It appears from this that there must be a sensor of some sorts that shuts off the engine in the event of a large shunt or if the wheels are lifted off of the ground. This is a very important safety device. Why though, can the 2014 and onwards power units not self start? If they had been able to then maybe jenson would have been able to simply start back up and re-join the race.

Before this generation of power units I can understand the problems with the extra weight of starters etc. Now however, it shouldn't take much more than a software update/new software mode. There could be two ways to start the engine.
1. The clutch is disengaged and since the MGU-K is connected to the crank all it has to do is rotate to a set speed and the engine will start just as if they used the starter mother from the back (hence where some teams have flaps in the back of their diffusers). The clutch is then engaged and the car pulls away and rejoins.
2. Same as number 1 but the clutch stays engaged the car getting up to speed also helps to roll start the car. 120kw should easily be enough for this.

Either I am missing something very obvious or Mclaren-Honda shot themselves in the foot by not including this. Or is there some reg that says once a car shuts off that it is out.
it has two reason:
1- regulation: With the exception of cars starting a race from the pit lane, the MGU-K may only be used during a race start once the car has reached 100km/h.
2-Mgu-k power of 120kw is delivered at high engine speed of 10000-13000 and the torque at rpm of 10000 is equal to 114 n.m and probably these mgu-k motor doesn't have enough torque at low revs to pull engine.
It has been found throughout various radio transmissions that teams have the ability to start the engines under their own power with the MGU-K. There have been released radio transmissions that explicitly state to drivers to attempt starting procedure when engines have shut off in the past

BanMeToo
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Joined: 27 Dec 2013, 16:26
Location: USA

Re: Starting ICE under own power

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trinidefender wrote:teams have the ability to start the engines under their own power with the MGU-K.
It's only certain teams though, right? Or teams with a certain engine mfg?

giantfan10
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Joined: 27 Nov 2014, 18:05
Location: USA

Re: Starting ICE under own power

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PlatinumZealot wrote:LOL @ kimi trusting the team after all that has happened in the past.

Anyway this pretty much confirms that the Ferrari MGU-K can start the engine.
The Ferrari MGU-K USED to be able to start the engine ... no more ... i think it was possible because it was positioned directly behind the engine.... IIRC i read somewhere that they lost that ability with the MGU-K beside the engine for some reason.

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Starting ICE under own power

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amho wrote:2-Mgu-k power of 120kw is delivered at high engine speed of 10000-13000 and the torque at rpm of 10000 is equal to 114 n.m and probably these mgu-k motor doesn't have enough torque at low revs to pull engine.
is this true that they actually do this ?
(ok I can see why they might restrict themselves in this way)
and how do we know ?

because the rules allow mgu-k power of 120 kW down to about 5700 rpm - via the torque being capped at 200 Nm crankshaft equivalent

ripper
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Joined: 26 Aug 2015, 22:19

Re: Starting ICE under own power

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giantfan10 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:LOL @ kimi trusting the team after all that has happened in the past.

Anyway this pretty much confirms that the Ferrari MGU-K can start the engine.
The Ferrari MGU-K USED to be able to start the engine ... no more ... i think it was possible because it was positioned directly behind the engine.... IIRC i read somewhere that they lost that ability with the MGU-K beside the engine for some reason.
I remember the same thing, now they can't anymore