Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
gruntguru
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Mansell89 wrote:It is pretty infuriating that there is a system (token) F1 that actually prevents the advancement in performance.

I thought that McLaren had increased compressor size over the winter which in turn was going to fix the energy recovery issue? But now we are saying that there can't be optimum electrical power because the car is using too much fuel to maintain performance?
Of course there are some tracks which are less sensitive to the race fuel limit and the Honda PU will presumably be more competitive. AFAIK all the teams needed to do some fuel conservation in Russia.
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diffuser
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Well I think what Honda said is that they can see where they'll need to make the compressor larger than what they can fit in the V. Which is why they were changing the configuration. They didn't exactly say that a larger compressor will allow them to save feul.


I presume their goal in any change they make will be to increase power and efficiancy.

GoranF1
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PlatinumZealot
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This is a smarty approach by Honda. The MGUH has been working satisfactorily since Australia now it is time to improve the battery and power electronics. Expect slightly better fuel consumption and better cooling.
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GoranF1
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PlatinumZealot wrote:This is a smarty approach by Honda. The MGUH has been working satisfactorily since Australia now it is time to improve the battery and power electronics. Expect slightly better fuel consumption and better cooling.
Energy storage is produced by Mclaren not Honda.....and since Mclaren is bringing new floor that upgrade is expected.
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taperoo2k
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GoranF1 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:This is a smarty approach by Honda. The MGUH has been working satisfactorily since Australia now it is time to improve the battery and power electronics. Expect slightly better fuel consumption and better cooling.
Energy storage is produced by Mclaren not Honda.....and since Mclaren is bringing new floor that upgrade is expected.
Likely that energy storage has been designed with parameters provided by Honda and agreed upon by McLaren.

GoranF1
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Honda doesn't know when it will introduce tokens, but wants big step when they do.


http://en.f1i.com/news/53782-honda-want ... -step.html
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-wkst-
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They must now for Barcelona. One week before the event where a team wants to introduce a token upgrade has to sent a documentation about it to the FIA. It's not possible to say on wednesday before a GP weekend: "ah, sun is shining so beautiful, we are introducing token upgrades tomorrow". =D>

PhillipM
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taperoo2k wrote:
GoranF1 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:This is a smarty approach by Honda. The MGUH has been working satisfactorily since Australia now it is time to improve the battery and power electronics. Expect slightly better fuel consumption and better cooling.
Energy storage is produced by Mclaren not Honda.....and since Mclaren is bringing new floor that upgrade is expected.
Likely that energy storage has been designed with parameters provided by Honda and agreed upon by McLaren.
I heard from a few people (none of which are current employee's, mind) that it's just a software update/switch to allow the battery store to be charged faster under heavy braking, etc - it's less efficient and generates more heat + wear/damage on the pack though which is why they haven't used it this season yet - but I guess you're not much bothered about the efficiency when recovering in braking area's, rather the total amount recovered.
If so it's not really much of a redesign but just flipping a switch on something that was already there now they're happy with reliability/temps - I guess we'll find out if they spend tokens or not.

Logie
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Wonder along with the new floor it will aid in cooling which will let them run the ERS more aggressive and hotter?

I agree with the token decision that Honda have taken, once those tokens are gone there gone. So if they do a few lame upgrades, that's it for the season. That might have one or two upgrades that could offer a nice performance boost in the future. It might be late, but if it gets them a podium or something its worth it!

I don't agree with that fuel saving cost 50 seconds. Because in quali they couldn't match the Williams where fuel doesnt matter.

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godlameroso
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Logie wrote:Wonder along with the new floor it will aid in cooling which will let them run the ERS more aggressive and hotter?

I agree with the token decision that Honda have taken, once those tokens are gone there gone. So if they do a few lame upgrades, that's it for the season. That might have one or two upgrades that could offer a nice performance boost in the future. It might be late, but if it gets them a podium or something its worth it!

I don't agree with that fuel saving cost 50 seconds. Because in quali they couldn't match the Williams where fuel doesnt matter.
I remember reading somewhere that Honda doesn't have a qualifying mode like the other engine manufacturers.

Also, these engines are so intricately interdependent, that much like last where a few parts compromised the entire power unit, perhaps this year a few parts working as they should could unlock a nice step in performance. Not so much making the power unit faster but rather unlocking the potential that was there all along.
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Nickel
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PhillipM wrote:

I heard from a few people (none of which are current employee's, mind) that it's just a software update/switch to allow the battery store to be charged faster under heavy braking, etc - it's less efficient and generates more heat + wear/damage on the pack though which is why they haven't used it this season yet - but I guess you're not much bothered about the efficiency when recovering in braking area's, rather the total amount recovered.
If total energy recovered in a braking event is greater, then it is more efficient. I don't understand your post.

GoranF1
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Hasegawa interview summary by Muramassa from Autosport forum.
Interesting Honda point of view regarding TC size.



interview from MELBOURNE

http://sports.yahoo....04300006-spnavi


----------- Your first F1 in 8 years since 00s, how is it?
I came back after so many year's absence and it's extremely tough. What's essential is about how we as Honda set target and make planning and carry it out in order to materialize the target, rather than strictly technical matter. Set the level to be cleared and arrange the necessary resources. That's my role, I consider. Coming up with the methodology itself is up to the technicians who are actually conducting the development, but I as well intend to participate in that if necessary.

---------------- Last year was the first year of comeback. Are you informed of what was lacking?
Last year we had so many problems. Looks like there was problem in just everything. It was about basic engine framework, durability, etc. PU attachment method, its operation, just every areas. Last year it was breaking down here and there. Engine itself has broken down once. That means we were unable to know the point where the best performance can be extracted out of it. This year, we must improve our stage. That's the impression I have coming to the opening race.

------------------ It's PU that is consisted of hybrid and TC
Up until the appointment, I was merely observing it from outside, so I have never imagined that hybrid and turbocharger was this much important. Honda is making hybrid roadcars, so we knew the basics such as storing energy by recovering kinetic energy in deceleration and add it to propel, but didnt understand enough about exhaust recovery. We didnt know enough about how much benefit there was in recovering engine's exhaust energy and converting it into electricity. We learnt that that part was significant last year, and made improvement to it during winter.


-------------- PU is becoming ever more complex nowadays
In terms of generating electricity, exhaust energy side is limitless, so you can regenerate as much as you want, but it wasn't easy. What was difficult was the management of turbo charger. The point was, how you convert exhaust energy into electricity efficiently. General explanation is that the bigger the turbocharger the better, but we are wondering if bigger diameter is indeed better or not, contemplating that there may be other methods/solutions. Also, perhaps we have yet to find out the most appropriate point for MGU placement/positioning.

--------- still far from winning?
We analyze that we must improve energy output, harvesting, durability, fuel consumption, just everything otherwise we cannot win. We are managing things by putting priority. What's difficult is that there is turbocharger attached to it. The output of MGU-K is set at 120kW by regulation. We now understand that the rest of it depends on engine output massively.

----------------- F1 once adopted KERS in 09. What are the differences between now and back then?
At first KERS output was 60kW, so it seems that drivers didnt feel its effect much. Performance of teams without KERS was better as well. So, I was vaguely thinking at first that, while it's important technology wise, it wouldnt be too much of a differentiator. Turned out that that was completely false, which was refreshing. Sure there's no point in adopting hybrid if it cannot make difference tho. But I didnt understand that when I was on 3rd party/outside position.

------------ Its usage is essential too, isnt it
The timing of use has become extremely complex, so pre-race simulation is getting important more and more. Under this year's regulation, once the race starts, then everything is up to drivers, so you indicate total energy amount on steering wheel then you drive and manage everything by yourself. Drivers of Mclaren Honda are rich in experience, so that's advantage I reckon

------------- What are the remaining agenda / target to be achieved?
as I just told, to improve performance in every aspects. Output, reliability, durability, fuel consumption, etc. Only after we achieve it, we can envisage victory, I reckon. It's still long road ahead, but we have many excellent technicians, so I believe it's not impossible.


=========================



another interview article, not sure exactly when conducted, but from the in the middle you can see it's apparently from China GP weekend. Maybe first half is from OZ and second half from China?....or just mishmash from the first 3 GPs
http://nikkan-spa.jp/1101143

------------ Any reactions from your acquaintances regarding your F1 return?
They all told me "welcome back". I received many messages from Ross Brawn, Takuma Sato etc, which I appreciate so much.

-------------- What did Takuma say?
He said "I'm pleased you are back, congratulations"

-------------- You were his engineer when Takuma got P3 podium at USGP 2004, did you cry back then?
You can't cry for a mere P3 (laughs)

--------------- I heard you requested/applied for the role of grand prix crew in 00s
"Requested" is bit exaggeration, but I did tell I'd like to do it at GP venues as long as I'm involved with the project.

----------- You requested/applied this time as well?
No I didnt (laughs).

------------ When did you receive the assignment notice?
Beginning of this year. But it's not kind of thing that gets decided out of blue, so we had been making talks prior to that.

------------- What was your frank impression at that time?
I had some sort of attachment/sentiment to F1, or desire that I want to do something for better, because I had been involved with F1 for long time, so I was half pleased and half disappointed/gutted having to abandon/leave my project that has just been launched. At the same time, I felt enormous pressure, and wondered if I can really leave/achieve good result or not because result is everything in this sport.

------------------ What did you think about the miserable last year?
Both praise for bringing the operation forward and making good fight under such circumstance of short preparation period, and disappointment about very unfortunate result by looking at it objectively

------------ What particularly impressed you when you went to Japan GP last year?
Sight of so many people cheering McLaren Honda despite poor results was very impressive.

-------------- What are the improvements for this year's PU?
Establishing reliability, improving deployment and engine power. Reliability and deployment has evolved to certain respectable level, but suffering from engine power still.

------------------ Where is Honda PU performance at compared to Merc, Ferrari and Renault?
It's no doubt that Mercedes is on top in every single aspect, but to be frank we dont know exactly where we are against Ferrari and Renault. However, what is clear as Honda is that, if there is gap in chassis, we can recover/compensate that gap if we work hard on PU, so we are developing PU to gain as much as possible, even 1kW.

------------- Which items do you put the most emphasis on for improvement?
Increasing engine and deployment output, nothing else.

----------------- Where is McLaren Honda positioned at the timing of 3rd race?
Somewhere in the middle. Especially midfield group is extremely tight, so if everything goes well we can be in point scoring position, but atm we're right on the borderline between point and no-point. We have a feeling that little trick can push us ahead quite a bit, so we want to manage to find that. Three tenth would make quite a difference.

--------------- Opposite is true as well, isnt it? (laughs)
Quite (laughs). But we are a team of strength, so I believe we'll be able to make good management.

------------------ How is McLaren chassis?
It's improving apparently, but it's not like one component can improve performance dramatically, rather it's more about how to use it. Tyre's contribution is significant as well, so it's about how well you manage to make complete package. Car's setup is getting better as well, it's not new spec but making modifications little by little, so the car is improving steadily. We have enough/good potential.



-------------- which team do you think is positioned behind mclaren honda?
It depends on circuit characteristics, also pecking order keeps changing, but from the result of the first 2 races, maybe we were above Manor, Sauber and Renault.

------------- You havent achieved the pre-season target of constantly going through to Q3 yet. Do you think you can make it to Q3 in the next few races?
I cannot promise that because we are fighting in the competition field where rival teams are also making progress.

------------- There is rumor that updated spec PU will be introduced for 5th race in Spain?
I cannot disclose when. It would be nice if we could introduce upgrade at such timing, but nothing has been decided yet.

-------------- How about the prospect of PU supply for 2nd team for next year?
At this moment nothing has been decided yet, also I cannot announce even if it has been decided (laughs). As we've been saying since F1 comeback, the idea that we as Honda ought to contribute to F1 hasnt changed. But about which team would be suitable, it hasnt been made clear yet.

------------------ you'd like to supply if possible?
It's just that we merely consider we should do that as a power unit supplier, ...mumble... (laughs). Of course there are advantages in it. Confirmation of reliability can be advanced, also we can obtain more data so that possibility of finding issues will increase.

----------------- If you have one more team, you'll have more option for drivers
For example promoting Japanese driver. At least Honda has such responsibility, I think.

--------------- Where do you place importance on as the commander leading the Honda's F1 project?
Be hungry for winning, committed to improving performance and responsible for it. In order for that, setting up well structured organization is the most important.


After the race of Chinese GP

----------------- you were outside point scoring position with 12th for FA and 13th for JB
The result manifests our current performance/capability precisely. It's even more disappointing because this is the result we've got by extracting current car's performance without such thing as PU trouble hindering car's setup

------------------- prospect for Russian GP?
PU spec wont change, so tough race should continue. We dont like just running only to finish 12th, so we have to make steady efforts and manage to sort out / improve
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

PhillipM
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Nickel wrote:
If total energy recovered in a braking event is greater, then it is more efficient. I don't understand your post.
In terms of energy taken versus energy stored, it would be less efficient, as you're charging the ES at a high C rate. Hence more heat.

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godlameroso
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Depends how much voltage you use, the regulations allow up to 1000V, but I assume they're using ~400V
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