Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship season.

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
BullTwinkle
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016, 20:48

Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship season.

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The power unit is deemed to consist of six separate elements: the internal combustion engine (ICE), the motor generator unit-kinetic (MGU-K), the motor generator unit-heat (MGU-H), the energy store (ES), turbocharger (TC) and control electronics (CE). So Each driver is allowed to use 5 of each power unit element. If a driver has to use any additional elements then the driver is issued a grid penalty. So the FIA expects that it is normal for any of these elements to last 4+ races (21/5= 4.2). Is this reasonable for the highest form of racing in the world today? I mean it wasn't very long ago that a racing engine/power unit was only expected to last the race and now for most forms of racing maybe the race weekend (practice, qualifying & the race). F1 has 8 races to go for 2016 and I would really like to know what each driver has - used up/has left - of their power unit elements. Considering the stringent rules the FIA has mandated on what materials teams are allowed to use constructing their respective power units, makes this mandate seem even more unreasonable to me. Am I out of touch with the realities of racing today? What do you think about this subject?

Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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Yes (somehow the forum doesn't allow "less then 4 letter posts", else it would just Ben"yes")

bhall II
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Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 20:15

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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It doesn't make a whole lot sense in terms of cost-cutting, because it has little, if any, effect on development, which is far and away more expensive than manufacturing.

Since not a single competitive team has managed to avoid penalties, the limit is arguably too low, and it's scheduled to be reduced even further by 2019...
grandprix.com, May 25, 2016 wrote:At the time, the FIA said cost reduction will be possible through a "progressive reduction of the number of power unit elements per driver per season".

Currently, drivers can use five engines per season, but Germany's Auto Motor und Sport said that by 2019, that number will drop dramatically to just two, irrespective of the size of the race calendar.

When asked if that will even be possible for Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda to achieve, FIA race director Charlie Whiting said: “I am confident they will succeed, because the manufacturers themselves are confident and agreed to these numbers.”
(Incidentally, justifications don't get any weaker than that.)

But, because the regulations are a patchwork of bad ideas, half ideas, and aborted ideas, all ostensibly held together by good intentions, I don't think anything about the power units will ever be logical.

SameSame
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Joined: 16 Jun 2016, 18:44

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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Yes. If a cost cap can be agreed for customer teams then this is a massive saving for them, especially considering how expensive the current PUs are. The manufacturers can carry the development costs and take all the advantages that come with designing the PU for their own cars.

BullTwinkle
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016, 20:48

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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Do you seriously believe that this will keep costs down? And as bhall II stated mandates like this are only going to make R&D more expensive. Also don't believe for a second that manufacturers of power units don't pass R&D costs along to anyone that might buy their power units. I also don't believe that the manufacturers agreed to eventually cut this number to 2. The FIA continues to baffle me with these ridiculous rules. They keep this up and Indy cars will be the foremost form of racing.


sosic2121
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Joined: 08 Jun 2016, 12:14

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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It seems to me gearbox failure is a bigger handicap than PU failure.
Hamilton just showed us how pointless this "5 PUs per season" rule.
IMO Rosberg and Vettel paid bigger price for their gearbox issues.

This is not meant to be Vettel vs Rosberg vs Hamilton comment. Rules are same for all.

NL_Fer
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Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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Although i doubt if helps in cost cutting, since allot is spend on R&D en testbed engines. But the manufactures seem to be able exactly built an engine for the needed milage. Just look how Rosberg engine blew soon as it had passed it's expected milage.

BullTwinkle
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016, 20:48

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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As I stated at the beginning of this post where does one find out how many power unit elements each driver has used so far in this season?
Also one has to wonder how much more horse power/torque these power units would be making if they didn't have to last so long.

Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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BullTwinkle wrote:As I stated at the beginning of this post where does one find out how many power unit elements each driver has used so far in this season?
Also one has to wonder how much more horse power/torque these power units would be making if they didn't have to last so long.
-at the FIA homepage
- a lot more, but then the rules would just compensate for that with a lower fuel rate (to get to the target HP)

Jolle
132
Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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Of course it reduces costs. R&D is whatever a manufacturer wants to spend, with test engines included. But after that, for the manufacturing, it's a big difference if you have to build 5-6 engines per car per year or 20-25.
So, or the costs are going down in general or they can spend more on R&D (what is also nice).

It's also a bit eneverarble since years, the design of an engine, the casings, big parts like crank, can be produced with far less over engineering like in "the good old days". After 5 races you really need to bin the engine instead you can rebuild it like the good old days. For instance, for four (1984-1987) seasons Porsche just build 28 TAG engines for McLaren. Under the same rules they would use around 100 race and 100 qualifying engines.

hurril
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Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 13:02

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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Unless grid penalties persist from one GP to the next, what's to stop everyone/anyone from getting 20 fresh units every time they have a significant update? Provided that having a fresh PU or building them with less emphasis on durability makes up for it.

wesley123
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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The rules on power units do aid in cost reduction. Teams only have to purchase five power units per season. Alternatively it prevents a flat-out PU war, as manufacturers cannot bring a new spec every race, which also would skyrocket the costs for the teams.
Costs for the PU makers are pretty irrelevant in this regard as only car makers have sufficient resources to commit to the current engine formula anyways

It also indirectly reduces power output as the power units have to last quite a long time, and yet they still make approximately 800bhp. And LMPs make over 1000bhp in comparison, while having to last over 24 hours.

The imposed limits are also an effect on the shift in the economic landscape where we have to do more with less. Burning through power units over the course of a season doesn't look very good anymore, and in this regard formula one is highly reliant on image. Both for itself as a platform for brands to advertise as well as giving car manufacturers a platform to promote themselves.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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hurril wrote:Unless grid penalties persist from one GP to the next, what's to stop everyone/anyone from getting 20 fresh units every time they have a significant update? Provided that having a fresh PU or building them with less emphasis on durability makes up for it.
Because the rule comes from the manufacturers themselves. Hamilton could have 10 new engines if Mercedes would have made them and even if they had the manufacturering capacity, they know that the year after they would need to make 20 engines per car per season because everybody would do it. Not in their advantage.
This is also the reasoning that Mercedes customers can't drive in other modes then the works team, else they would just pick a race (silverstone for Williams for example) and just put it in full power for just one race, disrupting the system.

Cold Fussion
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 04:51

Re: Do you agree with the FIA mandate that each driver may use no more than five power units during a championship seaso

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Given that every team is ready to use an engine beyond their 5th, It would appear the limitation is a wash.