Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Thunder]

Also there is a good Picture of the PU in the Article GoranF1 linked:

[FW17]

http://www.google.com/patents/US7922551

[hemichromis]

NO TURBULENT JET IGNITION YET FOR HONDA
With Formula One cars spending around 65% of a lap around Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps at full throttle, Honda upgraded its power unit in two areas ahead of the Belgian Grand Prix. The Japanese manufacturer spent seven engine development tokens on both its internal combustion engine (ICE) and turbocharger.
Like Renault, Honda has focussed its efforts on its ICE, which still trails the likes of Mercedes and Ferrari in terms of horsepower while using more fuel. Improving lean burn combustion, in a manner similar to Ferrari’s Turbo Jet Ignition (TJI), could address this weakness but the upgrade unleashed in Spa did not seem to feature the concept.
Honda, which pioneered a system of pre-chamber in the 1970s under the name of ‘Compound Vortex Controlled Combustion’ (CVCC), is considering the TJI option but has yet to integrate it, as Yusuke Hasegawa told F1i’s Chris Medland.
“As an engine company, we are always looking into new technology so this is an area we have studied,” Honda’s head of F1 project said. “Jet Ignition is one of them. It may be one option for the future, but we have not decided yet.”

http://en.f1i.com/magazine/69169-techni ... hamps.html

Honda can't introduce TJI because they have limited space behind the current injectors as the turbo is in the V. If you can see, TJI/CVCC require a large/long chamber to fit the injector and spark plug. TJI will be reserve for 2017 as Honda going to do a layout change.

For this update, I bet they are changing the profile of the piston and the intake chamber to have a more smoother air flow into the combustion chamber. Thats why the engine sounds like it revs higher.
As i check out the onboard footage of Honda vs Mercedes for German GP. Mercedes has the low end torque which Honda doesn't have. I looks like its a bit lazy when exit from a corner. I bet that Mercedes has a torquey ERS-K to help them to exit the corner much better. Honda haven't update their ERS-K. I'm hoping that they will do it for the next update.

Both Mclaren and Honda are chasing after concepts because these concepts can be carry forward for 2017. Honda is preparing the combustion chamber concept for next year and need to test it out on the track. I can see that Honda new update is more efficient that the previous specs. Same goes to mclaren.

Heres a prediction before the season ends:
Mclaren will be bringing a new suspension setup to improve mechanical grip.
Mclaren will continue bringing a new aero update
Honda will bring a more torquey ERS-K to help with the corner exit. (Current harvesting setup is on par with mercedes)
Honda will fine tune its setup after Monza
Esso Mobil will bring a new fuel formula

I'm expecting them to get at least a podium by the end of this year. [-o< [-o<

I really hope you're right!

It is good news that Honda does not have TJI as Renault seemed to make a big step when they instigated it.

[loner]

ok, so if the pre-injection isn't there yet and another update Singapore potentially......would 3 tokens be enough to introduce it? What can 3 tokens get you?

From what i can find, Ferrari spent 3 tokens in Canada 2015 and that's when they introduced it.

well Renault did it with 3 tokens i think they still have about 20 tokens but they won't use any for 2016
so i say its doable , the big news is Honda and Mclaren held a Mercedes Williams behind with no TJI drawing an optimistic image for the near future

[godlameroso]

The article says no TJI but makes no mention of what it is they actually did. TJI is a type of prechamber ignition not the only one.

[GoranF1]

The article says no TJI but makes no mention of what it is they actually did. TJI is a type of prechamber ignition not the only one.

here is what they did...

https://t.co/5W5j96CHdW

[OO7]

The article says no TJI but makes no mention of what it is they actually did. TJI is a type of prechamber ignition not the only one.

here is what they did...

https://t.co/5W5j96CHdW

Ted said Honda have managed to lower the combustion temperature which allows the turbo to be worked harder. I thought higher combustion temperatures are what the engine manufacturers are seeking?

[Sasha]

Only Ferrari has TJI.TJI is only made and patented by one company.

Others have pre-chamber and trick injectors.

[godlameroso]

No mention of what they did for Spa?

[ESPImperium]

Heres a prediction before the season ends:
Mclaren will be bringing a new suspension setup to improve mechanical grip.
Mclaren will continue bringing a new aero update
Honda will bring a more torquey ERS-K to help with the corner exit. (Current harvesting setup is on par with mercedes)
Honda will fine tune its setup after Monza
Esso Mobil will bring a new fuel formula

I'm expecting them to get at least a podium by the end of this year. [-o< [-o<

Suspension - Not gonna happen, no returns for suspension when there is a new track width next year so zero carry over for 2017.
Aero Update - Expected for Singapore, will be about 0.3-0.5 of a second, others will bring similar, chance to step forward or fall back, this will be it for 2016 and this chassis era.
Honda ERS-K - Could happen with their final 3 tokens, gains could happen, but as McLaren has sent a small group over to Sakura to help with ERS integration, it would be likely for 2017.
Honda Monza Set Up - They will use Monza as a test, a test for the number monkeys. Honda software programmers are to change or add lots of lines of code between now and Suzuka, theres performance to be had in those 1s and 0s
Esso Fuel - 2016 final revision will be ready at Malaysia, where final 3 tokens will be spent to deliver about 20hp overall.

I think 2017, when Honda bring their layout change and their version of TJI or CVCC, and finally improve. The law of diminishing returns is starting to bite for Mercedes, and this is where Honda and others can improve. Id say 2017 is where Honda, Ferrari and Renault will make a larger improvement relative to Mercedes. 2017 could just be a close season on engine terms.

[godlameroso]

Suspension - Not gonna happen, no returns for suspension when there is a new track width next year so zero carry over for 2017.
Aero Update - Expected for Singapore, will be about 0.3-0.5 of a second, others will bring similar, chance to step forward or fall back, this will be it for 2016 and this chassis era.
Honda ERS-K - Could happen with their final 3 tokens, gains could happen, but as McLaren has sent a small group over to Sakura to help with ERS integration, it would be likely for 2017.
Honda Monza Set Up - They will use Monza as a test, a test for the number monkeys. Honda software programmers are to change or add lots of lines of code between now and Suzuka, theres performance to be had in those 1s and 0s
Esso Fuel - 2016 final revision will be ready at Malaysia, where final 3 tokens will be spent to deliver about 20hp overall.

I think 2017, when Honda bring their layout change and their version of TJI or CVCC, and finally improve. The law of diminishing returns is starting to bite for Mercedes, and this is where Honda and others can improve. Id say 2017 is where Honda, Ferrari and Renault will make a larger improvement relative to Mercedes. 2017 could just be a close season on engine terms.

Who else is bringing chassis updates? Another small improvement from Honda combined with another small improvement from Mclaren. All these improvements are starting to snowball into a very decent car, I can't say I'm not enjoying watching them grow. Nice to know the willpower is there and the results are coming.

[Brian Coat]

"Honda will bring a more torquey ERS-K to help with the corner exit. "

Obviously the peak kW is clamped and the ideal is to achieve this exactly as and when required.

Where do we believe the opportunities lie?

[Kalun]

"Honda will bring a more torquey ERS-K to help with the corner exit. "

Obviously the peak kW is clamped and the ideal is to achieve this exactly as and when required.

Where do we believe the opportunities lie?

Although Peak kW is clamped but the degree of freedom for ERS-K is very wide. Those who can extract the most torque from 0 rpm from an electric motor will be the best manufacturer. The electric motor tech is evolving rather quickly. Honda doesn't have an experience in electric vehicle and racing type Electric motor system although Mclaren do have make Formula E electric motor.
Mercedes previously has a share in Tesla and also develop an electric supercar. Ferrari have Mahle who has an experience in DC/AC motor. Renault has experience from their electric motor devision and Formula E.
Unless Honda can contact a company, non other than "Panasonic or Denso" from Japan.

For ERS-K, there are 2 phase and 3 phase motor. AC and DC type motor. Obviously AC motor is more efficient. There are also brushless motor. I'm not sure which area did Honda go unless they go with Mclaren P1 type of electric motor. The most efficient electric motor should be able to convert electric to mechanical energy with minimal loss and high efficiency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor
Since the rules about Electric motor/ERS motor is minimal, the innovation that can be brought forward is astonishing and invisible at the same time. There is something that Mercedes did with their Electric motor and software programming that make them unstoppable. It is more visible when comparing Mercedes and Williams as both of them have different ECU programming. They have been developing ERS before this current formula came in.

Last time, I was hoping Samsung would sponsor Mclaren Honda because Samsung can help in ERS development.

[Rudex]

Look This article.
https://thewptformula.com/2014/03/26/an ... tem-mgu-k/

[Rudex]

The article says no TJI but makes no mention of what it is they actually did. TJI is a type of prechamber ignition not the only one.

here is what they did...

https://t.co/5W5j96CHdW

Ted said Honda have managed to lower the combustion temperature which allows the turbo to be worked harder. I thought higher combustion temperatures are what the engine manufacturers are seeking?

If you are able to down the combustion temperature you could raise the CR = more power.

We have the example of WI system
http://articles.sae.org/14176/