Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[FW17]

The assumption that the lap time gap to power gap is linear is completely wrong.

[PhillipM]

For one thing 1.5s down on power means a lot more issues extracting performance from the tyres, both in terms of energy going in for heating and downforce to reduce slip.

[dren]

There is compounding if the unit is down on power and down on fuel consumption: more lifting with less power.

[drunkf1fan]

Fuel consumption really isn't an issue at all for qualifying where the times were being compared though. In race sure, but you can carry an extra kg of fuel in qualifying to use whatever you need for absolute maximum power on a qualifying run.

[GoranF1]

According to the latest information, in 2017 machines where the engine full opening rate and air resistance increased, the power has a 0.2 second / 10 kW (about 13.4 horsepower) impact on lap time. Even if the Honda's power unit is 100 horsepower inferior to Mercedes AMG (although there is not much difference in reality), the lap time is only 1.49 seconds difference. The difference of 2.2 seconds from the Bartheli / Buttas of the top in Q2 is found to be due to the inferior performance of both the car body and the power unit being inferior.

I interpret this as saying that even if there was a 100hp difference that would only equate to 1.49 seconds although in reality the difference is less than 100hp.

And further, I cant see why they are comparing to a Q2 time, the reference should be to pole.

Pole 1:22.188
ALO 1:25.452

Difference 3.3s of which no more than 1.5s is due to PU, leaving at least 1.8s from car.

Unless Honda is 200hp down which wouldnt surprise me at all....

[godlameroso]

It's pretty bad, Alonso's Q2 time was only 1 second faster than the fastest race lap. Vettel had 4 seconds difference between fastest race lap and fastest qualifying lap. In the race Vandoorne was over 3 seconds per lap slower, the gap is enormous, the gap is literally that of a backmarker. That can't be down to just the engine though, it's obvious both need to improve, and they will. McLaren stretches the truth to claim they could win with Mercedes power, they'd be fighting with Red Bull maybe, but not winning or even fighting for podiums.

[mrluke]

According to the latest information, in 2017 machines where the engine full opening rate and air resistance increased, the power has a 0.2 second / 10 kW (about 13.4 horsepower) impact on lap time. Even if the Honda's power unit is 100 horsepower inferior to Mercedes AMG (although there is not much difference in reality), the lap time is only 1.49 seconds difference. The difference of 2.2 seconds from the Bartheli / Buttas of the top in Q2 is found to be due to the inferior performance of both the car body and the power unit being inferior.

I interpret this as saying that even if there was a 100hp difference that would only equate to 1.49 seconds although in reality the difference is less than 100hp.

And further, I cant see why they are comparing to a Q2 time, the reference should be to pole.

Pole 1:22.188
ALO 1:25.452

Difference 3.3s of which no more than 1.5s is due to PU, leaving at least 1.8s from car.

Unless Honda is 200hp down which wouldnt surprise me at all....

The crux of the problem is how do you determine what the HP deficit is?

Top speed is almost entirely a factor of drag.
Acceleration is traction limited.
Everybody has to lift and coast and that is still impacted by drag.
Apex speed is related to downforce level which is again related to drag.

I think the only situation where you can highlight a weak engine is when a team runs a noticeably low drag setup - skinny rear wing which is something Mclaren refuse to do.

so what does that leave us..?

[ziggy]

We all thought till now, that honda didn't use a mule car. But what if Mclaren is being used by Honda as a test mule? Apparently Honda developed a car in secret since 2009, even developed a hot blown diffuser, just to have the tech. Maybe thats why Mclaren demanded exclusive supply for the PU.

"With Honda about to open its new UK racing facility in Milton Keynes (below) it is hard to imagine that the engineers in Tochigi (themselves with a new facility) will not want to get involved in developing the whole car again and not just the power unit. How well this will be received at McLaren is another question"

Honda’s mystery F1 car
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... evealed/4/

Although the article is from 2014, I can assure its still opening many questions and also gives some answers. Enjoy reading

EDIT: I hope its the right thread here, otherwise please move the post...

[Mikey05021984]

I just noticed there are 2 testdays planned on 18-19 April in Bahrein (right after the Bahrein grand prix) it seems. Lets hope Honda's new engine will be ready by then, i can imagine it would be a very good moment to fully test there new spec on these 2 testdays...
Lets's hope they will be ready on time!

[PlatinumZealot]

Alonso is Bando in Japanese? lol interesting.

[godlameroso]

Alonso is Bando in Japanese? lol interesting.

No no, that's Vandoorne, which kind of makes sense because Japanese phonetic pronunciation of Vandoorne sounds an awful lot like Bando

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrT5LmO6bTU

[mattia.bobbo]

We all thought till now, that honda didn't use a mule car. But what if Mclaren is being used by Honda as a test mule? Apparently Honda developed a car in secret since 2009, even developed a hot blown diffuser, just to have the tech. Maybe thats why Mclaren demanded exclusive supply for the PU.

"With Honda about to open its new UK racing facility in Milton Keynes (below) it is hard to imagine that the engineers in Tochigi (themselves with a new facility) will not want to get involved in developing the whole car again and not just the power unit. How well this will be received at McLaren is another question"

Honda’s mystery F1 car
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... evealed/4/

Although the article is from 2014, I can assure its still opening many questions and also gives some answers. Enjoy reading

EDIT: I hope its the right thread here, otherwise please move the post...

Hey, stop dreaming before writing comments..

Honda can't make a half decent engine, and they are thinking of making a whole car themselves? Doesn't make any sense.

Engineers in tochigi hasn't been able to make a decent engine in 3 years, what makes you think their car will be better? The hot air diffuser story is not related with the rest.

[Del Boy]

Ok, fair enough.

Then if you would kindly explain how reliability upgrades worked during the token era, and how they then didnt count against the PU allotment.

Shady the comments that followed your post are correct however nobody mentions, that when an engine is changed on reliability grounds the design change is shared with all of the F1 teams. Therefore if you try to hide a performance upgrade it is very easy to copy.

[ziggy]

We all thought till now, that honda didn't use a mule car. But what if Mclaren is being used by Honda as a test mule? Apparently Honda developed a car in secret since 2009, even developed a hot blown diffuser, just to have the tech. Maybe thats why Mclaren demanded exclusive supply for the PU.

"With Honda about to open its new UK racing facility in Milton Keynes (below) it is hard to imagine that the engineers in Tochigi (themselves with a new facility) will not want to get involved in developing the whole car again and not just the power unit. How well this will be received at McLaren is another question"

Honda’s mystery F1 car
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... evealed/4/

Although the article is from 2014, I can assure its still opening many questions and also gives some answers. Enjoy reading

EDIT: I hope its the right thread here, otherwise please move the post...

Hey, stop dreaming before writing comments..

Honda can't make a half decent engine, and they are thinking of making a whole car themselves? Doesn't make any sense.

Engineers in tochigi hasn't been able to make a decent engine in 3 years, what makes you think their car will be better? The hot air diffuser story is not related with the rest.

Did you read all the 4 pages of the article? If not do it and come back

[ncassi22]

Media reporting Sauber will announce Honda supply deal in April.
http://members.f1-life.net/report/51763/
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... rev=search