2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

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Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by Restomaniac » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:51 am

GPR-A wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:16 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:59 pm
Wasn't there one of Vettels title seasons where the Red Bull was a bit off at the start. So much so that people thought the Red Bull bubble had burst? Only for by the end of the season it being the car to beat so much so that it still brought a WDC + WCC.
2012. A year where EBD was banned and they could not get their new exhaust design right. They copied sauber design and improvised it. A year that McLaren started and ended with the fastest car, only to have screwed themselves with wrong development path mid-season, bad pit stops, strategies and bad reliability.
Thanks. I couldn't remember the details.
I just remembered that Red Bull the then current WDC + WCC couldn't get the car to work. The point is that it proves that they CAN and have fixed their car mid season. Even though McLaren screwed themselves if Red Bull hadn't fixed it they wouldn't have been in a position to capitalise.

FW17
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by FW17 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:54 am

Any Pics, I thought McLaren and Sauber systems were similar in the first race, while Ferrari had a Acer duct

Sauber ramp was tested later in the season

GPR-A
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by GPR-A » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:42 am

FW17 wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:54 am
Any Pics, I thought McLaren and Sauber systems were similar in the first race, while Ferrari had a Acer duct

Sauber ramp was tested later in the season
Sauber C31
Image
Image

Red Bull RB8 - Launch spec used at first few races
Image

Red Bull RB8 - Improvised version of Sauber Exhaust - Used for later part and in 2013
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McLaren MP4-27
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Vanja #66
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by Vanja #66 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:08 am

RB used two solutions going into 2012 - Seb used launch spec sometimes, Webber used Coanda exhaust solution...

Image
2012 China GP

seezung
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by seezung » Mon May 08, 2017 11:47 am

I think this should be the topic for a bit of speculation if Im correct about the Spain updates.

User on the Verstappen forums has posted some speculation about the RB13b ( Called RB14 ) which is being introduced in Spain. Last year he had some posts where he said that Verstappen would be promoted to RB-Racing before it was announced. Still speculation though, but might be hopefull for any RB fans.

Source https://forum2.verstappen.nl/index.php? ... c#msg_2536
Translation: "Well, It's one year ago I was first to announce the transfer of Max to RB. Normally I don't post much, unless there is some spectacular news.
For FP1 in spain, Red Bull will present the RB14 to the public. The RB14 will be a replacement of the RB13 and features a few interesting changes. Most importantly the suspension, the rake and the nose. Newey designed the nose (on the RB13) with a specific innovative mindset on how to guide the airflow around the car. This didn't seems to work optimally, and Schummi (forum user) already pointed out how and why. Heads up, I'm not a technician, but the RB simulator results of Max show an improvement of 1.3 to 1.5 seconds per lap compared to the RB13. In real world practice this should mean an improvement of one second per lap.
Renault has decided, based on this input, to adjust the engine to increase reliability, before increasing the power output. This means the Renault manufacturer team has set its eyes on keeping its current posistion.
Of course, we will have to wait and see, but similar to last year, the source is straight from Milton Keynes."

Artur Craft
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by Artur Craft » Mon May 08, 2017 4:03 pm

:shock:

If the car really improves by that much, then it will corner A LOT faster than Ferrari and Mercedes because, as it was on Bahrain and Sochi, Red Bull already had the cornering speed of Ferrari and Mercedes even with their sleek car:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LytDgckaIGo
http://motorsportzone.blogspot.com/2017 ... fying.html

Cold Fussion
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by Cold Fussion » Tue May 09, 2017 3:42 am

Artur Craft wrote:
Mon May 08, 2017 4:03 pm
:shock:

If the car really improves by that much, then it will corner A LOT faster than Ferrari and Mercedes because, as it was on Bahrain and Sochi, Red Bull already had the cornering speed of Ferrari and Mercedes even with their sleek car:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LytDgckaIGo
http://motorsportzone.blogspot.com/2017 ... fying.html
That website would be an abomination in 1999.

TNTHead
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by TNTHead » Tue May 09, 2017 12:09 pm

In Auto Motor und Sport a summary is given at the point Red Bull stands now
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 27537.html

They state that the Barcelona update of the chassis is aimed at increasing the downforce at back of the car so they can get the rear tyres in the desired temperature range. Furthermore they question whether the new regulations have destroyed their concept (high rake, without losing too much top speed). I am curious which parts will be updated (beside confirmed base plate and front wing). They even may change their basic concept so that the b-spec can be seen as a new car.

adrianjordan
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by adrianjordan » Tue May 09, 2017 3:05 pm

TNTHead wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 12:09 pm
In Auto Motor und Sport a summary is given at the point Red Bull stands now
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 27537.html

They state that the Barcelona update of the chassis is aimed at increasing the downforce at back of the car so they can get the rear tyres in the desired temperature range. Furthermore they question whether the new regulations have destroyed their concept (high rake, without losing too much top speed). I am curious which parts will be updated (beside confirmed base plate and front wing). They even may change their basic concept so that the b-spec can be seen as a new car.
I know this is off topic, but if the new rules have destroyed their concept of high rake etc, then I wonder if that has impacted on Mclaren as well...
In 2007 I had the chance to go to a meet-and-greet with an F1 test driver. I decided not to as I didn't think he'd even amount to much...he was the BMW Sauber test driver and his name was Sebastian Vettel...

SparkyAMG
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by SparkyAMG » Tue May 09, 2017 5:10 pm

adrianjordan wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 3:05 pm
TNTHead wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 12:09 pm
In Auto Motor und Sport a summary is given at the point Red Bull stands now
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 27537.html

They state that the Barcelona update of the chassis is aimed at increasing the downforce at back of the car so they can get the rear tyres in the desired temperature range. Furthermore they question whether the new regulations have destroyed their concept (high rake, without losing too much top speed). I am curious which parts will be updated (beside confirmed base plate and front wing). They even may change their basic concept so that the b-spec can be seen as a new car.
I know this is off topic, but if the new rules have destroyed their concept of high rake etc, then I wonder if that has impacted on Mclaren as well...
Continuing the off-topic theme, Mercedes stated that they explored switching to the high rake concept for 2017 but found its potential to be limited compared with the long wheelbase concept they opted for.

I hope Red Bull's Barcelona package is as radical as the media would have us believe. Chucking them into the Ferrari / Mercedes mix should produce some incredible races.

Artur Craft
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by Artur Craft » Tue May 09, 2017 6:17 pm

Cold Fussion wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 3:42 am
That website would be an abomination in 1999.
It's odd/different but, imo, still not as bad as the current mobile oriented ones. Does people remember how awesome the previous f1.com was? The new one is uglier, not as neat and lack lot's of info such as sector times and etc(thankfully, those are still available on FIA's website)

Picking on the site's numbers from Bahrain, Red Bull only lost 0.8s to Mercedes on the straights and I guess that will be much less on a track like Barcelona? If this new package is all that's been rumoured, RB could be quite close on qualifying, or at least on race pace.

Nuvolari
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by Nuvolari » Tue May 09, 2017 6:43 pm

Artur Craft wrote:
Mon May 08, 2017 4:03 pm
:shock:

If the car really improves by that much, then it will corner A LOT faster than Ferrari and Mercedes because, as it was on Bahrain and Sochi, Red Bull already had the cornering speed of Ferrari and Mercedes even with their sleek car:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LytDgckaIGo
http://motorsportzone.blogspot.com/2017 ... fying.html
I find Russia to be problematic in deducing much, as RB's tyre problems would've been much worse there. Some food for thought from Bahrain:

Image

It's a cubic fit of some full throttle acceleration data. Unbroken line = cars approaching and accelerating through turn 12, dashed line = acceleration along the straight (without DRS) between turns 13 & 14, dotted line = acceleration along straight (with DRS) between turns 10 & 11.

It appears to me that RB13 doesn't gain as much speed with the DRS ...possible that it's less draggy. The Haas was matching the RB13 in turn 12 though, which suggests to me that the car is lacking downforce/grip in the high speed corners compared to Mercedes. The Barcelona update has to be pretty hefty to lift the car to playing with Ferrari/Mercedes, IMO.

A caveat: the data is not as good as I'd like with some 1 km/h starting speed error.

Artur Craft
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by Artur Craft » Tue May 09, 2017 7:45 pm

Thanks very much for the data! Which laps are these data from?

T12 is an easy 100% throttle bend, so it's pure power. On the motorsportzone Bahrain comparison, I think Verstappen was up there with Bottas through the fast T6.

Noble talked to RB people and they threw cold water on the hype surrounding this upgrade, as I guess they would do regardless of how big that is. I don't think the upgrade will be enough because the others will also take their's but it migh closes the gap to less than half a second.

Nuvolari
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by Nuvolari » Wed May 10, 2017 11:25 am

Artur Craft wrote:
Tue May 09, 2017 7:45 pm
Thanks very much for the data! Which laps are these data from?

T12 is an easy 100% throttle bend, so it's pure power. On the motorsportzone Bahrain comparison, I think Verstappen was up there with Bottas through the fast T6.

Noble talked to RB people and they threw cold water on the hype surrounding this upgrade, as I guess they would do regardless of how big that is. I don't think the upgrade will be enough because the others will also take their's but it migh closes the gap to less than half a second.
Bottas was pole lap, Grosjean best lap from qualifying (the Q3 lap), and for Ricciardo, it was his first Q3 lap. The Ricciardo lap was around 0.5s slower than his second Q3 lap but I don't have an onboard of that. For the comparison I posted it shouldn't matter.

You're right that turn 12 is full throttle, and I would disagree it's all about power...I think the plot above illustrates that it's not. If it was only about power, the acceleration through turn 12 would be closer to the dashed line. The respective delta between the dashed line and the unbroken lines, indicate how much the cornering speeds were limited by the chassis. The Mercedes is carrying a lot more speed through turn 12 because it is less limited by the corner, than the RB or Haas.

The delta between Mercedes and RB/Haas at T12 apex (6 km/h), is bigger than the delta between them simply accelerating along the straight full throttle (5 km/h). In any case, all cars are so far from their ideal straight line accleration speed, that if RB was producing more or less equal downforce at high speed to Mercedes, there should be no problem with matching Mercedes through there. Happy to be corrected.

Regarding turn 6, I posted this in the Haas thread:

Image

Grosjean was also matching the Mercedes through turn 6. It's Turn 7 where both RB and Haas lose to Mercedes. This is consistent with the turn 12 data. The one aspect of RB13's performance that lifts it clear of the midfield cars is low speed cornering.

motobaleno
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Re: 2017 Red Bull Racing Team - Tag Heuer

Post by motobaleno » Wed May 10, 2017 11:33 am

Nuvolari wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 11:25 am


You're right that turn 12 is full throttle, and I would disagree it's all about power...I think the plot above illustrates that it's not. If it was only about power, the acceleration through turn 12 would be closer to the dashed line. The respective delta between the dashed line and the unbroken lines, indicate how much the cornering speeds were limited by the chassis.
maybe you'are forgetting friction: in a turn, even if you are flat out, friction prevents you from achieving the same acceleration than along a straight.

Incidentally, for the same reason, the fact that mercedes was faster than ferrari in turn 3 at sochi did not indicated a better aerodynamical/chassis behavior of mercedes in high speed corners but it was simply another evidence of the fact that mercedes PU is still superior



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