Mercedes Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
3jawchuck
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by 3jawchuck » Wed May 17, 2017 9:18 pm

Why would they be using multigrade oil?

Craigy
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Wed May 17, 2017 10:05 pm

3jawchuck wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 9:18 pm
Why would they be using multigrade oil?
Cold starts in winter while they scrape the ice off the windscreen?

The posts on this thread are weird.

PhillipM
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by PhillipM » Wed May 17, 2017 10:37 pm

3jawchuck wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 9:18 pm
Why would they be using multigrade oil?
The high quality of the base-stocks and selection used at that level means they're multigrade even without VI's or similar.

MrPotatoHead
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Thu May 18, 2017 6:27 pm

Craigy wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 10:05 pm
3jawchuck wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 9:18 pm
Why would they be using multigrade oil?
Cold starts in winter while they scrape the ice off the windscreen?

The posts on this thread are weird.
I chuckled.
And yes. Some strange posts here for sure.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri May 19, 2017 2:18 am

Mutligrade oil is still used in hot climates. It has it benefits.
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri May 19, 2017 9:07 am

what people are calling an oil or multigrade oil is a synthetic lubricant with a substantial proportion of esters ......

its viscosity varies less with temperature than does the viscosity of the natural ('straight') reference oils that form the SAE grading system
so it is impossible to characterise the (F1 'oil's) viscosity as anything other than multigrade
nobody is using a lubricant whose viscosity varies with temperature as much as a straight-grade oil's does

hardingfv32
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by hardingfv32 » Fri May 19, 2017 5:24 pm

Use of the word 'oil' seems inappropriate.

The most advanced 'lubricants' have very high viscosity indexes. The viscosity changes very little with changes in temperature.

Brian

godlameroso
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Fri May 19, 2017 5:47 pm

Ester or Polyalphaolefin based, or is it something even more exotic?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

hardingfv32
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by hardingfv32 » Fri May 19, 2017 9:52 pm

Something like 1-butyl-3-methylimidazolium bis(trifluoromethylsulfonyl)amide. It does not decompose until above 472 C. In a race engine it will never loose any of its properties so it is lasts forever. I overstated the Viscosity index: 159 for the stuff verses 128 for 0W-10 engine oil. This is an ionic liquid… a new type of chemical (about a decade old). Solids made into liquids. Lubricants are just a very small part of the possible uses of this family of chemicals.

COST is an issue at $1000-2000 per qt or L but not anything for those involved with F1. Currently generally only made at the lab level. So there is a small cost associated with the current 5L lubricant burn per race!

Brian

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat May 20, 2017 4:17 pm

What is the source for off the shelf synthetic oils?

And two... That second ionic liquid thingy where does that come from?
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

hardingfv32
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by hardingfv32 » Sat May 20, 2017 5:44 pm

I am a engine builder and club racer looking for an advantage…. NOT a chemist.

Base stocks for synthetic oils come from oil. natural gas. coal. plants. animals etc.

Ionic liquids probably similar sources but also chemicals that you normally think of as solids at room temperatures. Things like phosphonium. phosphate. sodium etc. The main theme of ionic liquids is the capability of using solids in a liquid….AT room temperature. I have noticed that the IL's used for lubricants are often many of the same chemical families used as additives in std oil. That is a non-chemist observation.

The IL quoted is a 'neat' lubricant… used 100%. I could not source it anywhere in the world for purchase. Interestingly this IL cannot be used as an additive. I use a different IL that will mix with synthetic oil that I found from a source in Germany. 7-8 grams per 1 qt/L of oil…. at a cost of $30-40. That is the per qt application cost. Liquid gold???

A lot of trial and error developing IL's. There seems to be two parts to every formulation but how they might enter act cannot be know for certain.

Brian

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed May 24, 2017 3:59 am

Hmm. There are anionic and cationic polymers used in water treatment. Extremely slippery substances if i do say so myself. Dropped a few beakers because of said sliperyness. Billions of polymer chains in each drop of goo. They are pretty much solids in neat form and you mix them out in water. I wonder if they are related. Acrylimide or something like that.
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

hardingfv32
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by hardingfv32 » Wed May 24, 2017 4:49 pm

It would be my opinion that 'slippery' is not the main driver of lubrication formulation in these days. Very low viscosities are what reduce friction but this creates problems for the cylinders. The bearings have completely different lubrication requirements than the cylinders. These new formulations have anti-wear properties to deal with this.

As an example the IL mentioned as a 10W oil has the same wear properties/rate as a 30W Mobil 1 oil.

Brian

hurril
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by hurril » Wed May 24, 2017 5:16 pm

hardingfv32 wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 4:49 pm
It would be my opinion that 'slippery' is not the main driver of lubrication formulation in these days. Very low viscosities are what reduce friction but this creates problems for the cylinders. The bearings have completely different lubrication requirements than the cylinders. These new formulations have anti-wear properties to deal with this.

As an example the IL mentioned as a 10W oil has the same wear properties/rate as a 30W Mobil 1 oil.

Brian
Asking as a n00b, would you mind elaborating on why, or in what way, the cylinders and the bearings have different lubrication requirements?

godlameroso
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Wed May 24, 2017 5:51 pm

Bearings rely on a hydrodynamic film, in other words as long as there's oil pressure and flow past the bearings, the journals don't touch the bearing. Except of course during the small amount of shear during the power stroke. A cylinder relies on splash lubrication, and the oil on the thrust surface of the cylinder skirt deals with far more shear forces than the crank bearing ever will.

Low viscosity is good for reducing pumping losses, but higher viscosity sometimes but not always has higher oil film strength, which is good for lubricating things without oil pressure(ie pistons,gears,chains etc).
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee



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