Race start monitoring system

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AJI
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by AJI » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:26 am

Cold Fussion wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:43 am

It's unlikely the onboard cameras run at 100 fps, it's going to be either 50 or 25.
If my 2 year old phone can capture 720p at 240fps then it's not unreasonable to expect the cameras on an F1 car in 2017 to be at least that. I accept that transmitting the data of all the car cameras at that frame rate in real time may not be achievable, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility?

Cold Fussion
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by Cold Fussion » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:01 am

AJI wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:26 am
Cold Fussion wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:43 am

It's unlikely the onboard cameras run at 100 fps, it's going to be either 50 or 25.
If my 2 year old phone can capture 720p at 240fps then it's not unreasonable to expect the cameras on an F1 car in 2017 to be at least that. I accept that transmitting the data of all the car cameras at that frame rate in real time may not be achievable, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility?
There's very little reason for the onboard camera to capture 100p when it is being broadcasted in 50p, all it will yield is worse image quality.

RZS10
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by RZS10 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:00 pm

hardingfv32 wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:09 am
So back to your statement: I would think the as the car drives 'towards' the sensor that the signal strength would go from zero to peak fallowing a tradition parabolic signal strength/distance curve. Can you explain why you feel it would go horizontal? There might be something for me to learn.
I stole both images posted by deltaecho5 and combined them into one

Image

1) would be the car arriving in it's grid box (signal strength going from 0 to what i initially called 'zero distance'

2) car standing still in on the grid, since it is not moving there is no change in signal strength

3) car starts moving

4) car is exactly above the loop

then the signal goes back down to 0

ESPImperium
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by ESPImperium » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:26 pm

Cold Fussion wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:01 am
AJI wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:26 am
Cold Fussion wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:43 am

It's unlikely the onboard cameras run at 100 fps, it's going to be either 50 or 25.
If my 2 year old phone can capture 720p at 240fps then it's not unreasonable to expect the cameras on an F1 car in 2017 to be at least that. I accept that transmitting the data of all the car cameras at that frame rate in real time may not be achievable, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility?
There's very little reason for the onboard camera to capture 100p when it is being broadcasted in 50p, all it will yield is worse image quality.
Onboard camera runs at 720p/25hz on two reasons. First its a hostile environment in a F1 car, so they take a performance hit as they don't have to deal with flake out issues. And on Flake Out issues, the amount of bandwidth needed for the cameras to display 1080p/50hz is more than double, and trackside they are already battling for airwave space with the telemetry systems that the teams use, so they take the decision to go at a lower resolution and refresh rate then they upscale via software to 1080p/50 in real time.

Now, if the teams didn't need the airwaves for telemetry... Well, I'm sure FOM would upgrade the cameras in an instant. The technology is there as the FE guys are broadcast in 1080p/50 after all, however they have telemetry bands zeroed out during each session for this reason, teams can manage 32 streams (excluding battery usage) and the airwaves are kept as clean and clear for broadcast. If F1 was to do the same, but it won't.

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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by deltaecho5 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:06 pm

AJI wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:15 am
Now, I'm sorry to harp on about this, but I'm still unclear about BOT's "anticipated" start, so can you please help?
The best I can do is relate my own theory about Bottas' scenario, but I cannot comment on the decision's relevance or how they made it (#1, I was simply not present, and #2, It's not my place to have an opinion about the decision)

I can however surmise how Bottas achieved what he did-

He's an athlete with the skills required of an F1 driver, and using this ability to react (or if you please, in this case act, an so was able to do so to his favor (please don't read that as cheat, exploit or circumvent the rules).

I would postulate that Bottas anticipated the lights, as all upward row drivers do, and for whatever reason, his action (or reaction if you please) came within the acceptable parameters of the race start system.

I don't think this is rocket science, I think he was just very lucky, as others have been. To term it as action (intentional movement at a predetermined time) or reaction (intentional movement based on a stimulus), is, to me, subjective.

What seems to being discussed is a specific set of equipment or sensors to determine reaction time of a driver...There's only one sport I'm aware of that has that apparatus as part of the sport: Drag Racing.

F1 as well as other motorsport with 'start' flags/lights opposed to a green light start system have not typically needed to determine a drivers reaction (or action if you please) time, only the vehicles movement across a virtual plane to denote it's static (or non-static) relationship to all other competitors within the group.

Since Timekeeping is concerned with the car specifically not the driver (other than stint), the car has the Tx, not the driver <grin>. :D
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deltaecho5
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by deltaecho5 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:16 pm

AJI wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:26 am
Cold Fussion wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:43 am

It's unlikely the onboard cameras run at 100 fps, it's going to be either 50 or 25.
If my 2 year old phone can capture 720p at 240fps then it's not unreasonable to expect the cameras on an F1 car in 2017 to be at least that. I accept that transmitting the data of all the car cameras at that frame rate in real time may not be achievable, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility?

I agree. High FPS isn't so much a problem for High Def. On-Boards conversion took place a few years back. The cameras transmit to local beacons around the track connected to the fiber ring. Data though put isn't an issue at all. 12 strand fiber (sometimes 24)...well, you guys can do the math...

In other FIA motorsport, our Hi-Speeds for S/F and broad view are capable of detecting +/- .015 meters at 350 kph...I'll let you surmise if what we use in FIA F1 is similar.
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deltaecho5
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by deltaecho5 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:17 pm

Cold Fussion wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:01 am
There's very little reason for the onboard camera to capture 100p when it is being broadcasted in 50p, all it will yield is worse image quality.
Unless of course the purpose is for scrutiny by race officials...
Last edited by deltaecho5 on Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hardingfv32
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by hardingfv32 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:41 pm

deltaecho5 & RZS10

Thanks

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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by deltaecho5 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:57 pm

For anyone interested-

Since Transponders have been part of this discussion, I thought it might be applicable and terribly boring reading for those so inclined (or literally with nothing better to do) - Here's a current manual on a type of X2 similar to that used.

(Bear in mind, the X2 systems adopted by the FIA as well as others are proprietary and often differ in mounting, operation and some minor specification differences, but for the purposes of this discussion, operate inexactlythe same fashion.)

https://www.mylaps.com/app/uploads/2017 ... -v2-01.pdf
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deltaecho5
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by deltaecho5 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:53 pm

RZS10 wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:00 pm

1) would be the car arriving in it's grid box (signal strength going from 0 to what i initially called 'zero distance'

2) car standing still in on the grid, since it is not moving there is no change in signal strength

3) car starts moving

4) car is exactly above the loop

then the signal goes back down to 0
I had originally made a lengthy post in response to this but it didn't get saved...so here's a shorter version (if that's possible!)-

Curious: Does a mobile phone signal bar meter go to zero when you are standing next to a cell?

Unless I am missing your point, No, the Signal Strength does not return to zero as long as the Tx is in proximity. In addition, as mentioned, the tolerance of the loop allows for anomalies that would include timestamps for signal higher or lower without movement, making any measurement of it's location in proximity in relation to the loop invalid. (For the sake of accuracy, 'tis why I specifically included anomalies in my representation by reference to actual X2 Admin data...additionally, there are many reasons for this due to magnetic induction limitations, reflection and power strength of the loop at a given section of the track).

Edit: [Trying to understand your point: Are you referring to the signal drop after the competitor has left its box? If so, then yes, at some point the signal strength would decline, but if we are talking milliseconds, there's too much noise in the system to reliably determine where the car was and what wasn't in relation to the loop. Exercise: consider the parallax of the cone of the Tx to the loop at height in relationship to its movement over time in milliseconds. Also include reflection, interference and power fluctuation. The meter graph you are imagining isn't that accurate, and includes at times vertical time stamps since the Tx at times emits more signal per second than the decoder registers..loops pick up as much as 1400/hits/sec and as low as 6/hits/sec.] Remember, by design the loop is 24" wide...so the car could travel as much as 24 inches at max peak without signal declination!

Ultimately the designed purpose of the Tx is to transmit it's unique data signal constantly, and the purpose of the loop is to receive this unique signal...any signal from this Tx, any signal....even just one hit (regardless of strength or proximity, is enough to validate the Tx was on, over or near the loop, thus allowing for a scored passing. If the car is near the loop, it will pick up signal...(think geiger counter).

Something to think about - Tracks with Pit lane loops in close proximity to the actual track loops have, do and will on occasion pick up a stray Tx signal from cars traveling on the opposite surface. Given this, if one were using only the equipment to certify a cars position, the timekeeper would have to conclude that the car was in both places at the same time. (Cool!)

[Edit: This would mean a short start box loop would also pick up the car next to, ahead or behind it if the sensitivity was such to detect minute movement]

So sadly, no matter how we analyze Signal Strength, or transmission location versus loop location, based on its design parameters, you can't reliably use or establish a consistent protocol to detect quick inch by inch movement using the current FIA Tx and loop system. We must consider what the equipment is designed to do, include it's limitations, and conclude if it is capable of reliably performing the task. In this case, this is not the system used for such determinations.
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RZS10
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by RZS10 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:31 pm

no i meant the car being completely gone from the starting grid too far away for any signal to reach the sensors

deltaecho5
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by deltaecho5 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:45 pm

RZS10 wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:31 pm
no i meant the car being completely gone from the starting grid too far away for any signal to reach the sensors
LOL. After reading it in the mirror I kinda gathered that. Cheers.

Anyway, hopefully the info was helpful.

One nugget that finally exited my brain to keyboard I should have mentioned posts ago - I think the key is the understanding that the loop size, 24" (roughly 60cm) receiving the signal at max peak (a straight line), given a 8"-10" (20/25cm) mounting distance from the track, and a signal transmission cone of a min. of 20cm, the car could move this distance: 20cm + 60cm + 20cm (100cm) without a variance in signal : approaching(20cm of the cone), over (60 cm) and past the loop (20cm of the cone) without signal drop. That's 100cm, over three feet, at a relatively slow speed (anyone with math on distance traveled from 0 to 100cm at launch?) without a significant deviation in signal strength.

[/passionate about timekeeping dissertation off]
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AJI
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by AJI » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:39 pm

deltaecho5 wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:17 pm
Cold Fussion wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:01 am
There's very little reason for the onboard camera to capture 100p...
Unless of course the purpose is for scrutiny by race officials...
This was my initial point in a nutshell.

If the judgment is made by visual confirmation (albeit with car telemetry for due diligence) then surely the onboard camera is the ideal reference point. Even if it can't stream ultra high speed images live, it could buffer and transmit the high frame rate data later.

iichel
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by iichel » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:51 am

I read some rumours around Renault using a start system that used the loops in the tarmac in the mid 2000's.

I.e. : https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... e=formula1

Now this would suggest that there were sensors in the box. I'm not sure how true these rumours are and how much has changed in 10 years time...
However, it would make sense that the transmitter/grid loop system is (or has been) used. Still doesn't explain BOTs reaction time.

deltaecho5
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Re: Race start monitoring system

Post by deltaecho5 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:31 pm

iichel wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:51 am
I read some rumours around Renault using a start system that used the loops in the tarmac in the mid 2000's.
[My apologies in advance for a boring lengthy post, I am only attempting to provide information based on actual first hand experience.]

The are just that...rumours. Whether Reddit is a reliable source for technical information is debatable.

A few points to put this to rest again regarding the article (the assumption is the other posts in this thread were ignored or not read):

-There are no wifi signals operating any equipment in any professional motorsports that are able to be used in the manner described. The start light system in F1 is a hardwired system to the closed network. If you have been on the start stand, seen the lights system, you would understand this without any doubt.

In the past and on occasion due to location (street circuits), a limited wireless system employed for remote communication is/was encrypted net-talk, and the gearbox as described has as much chance of pulling Charlie's email by accident as detecting start light function. In any event, the button starts a sequence to extinguish the lights via software, not start the race using some not so secret frequency on some gadget from which you could eaves drop. The timing of the light bar is software driven, and 'button' only starts this sequence.

-There are no loops in the start boxes, or unicorn horns for that matter.

OK, to date I have not commented on the current start sensor system, other than to dispel the theory of using the Tx and loop system. Something to consider that has not been brought up, for those so inclined, there is a multi component system in motorsport that uses a combination of ground sensing RF and laser (think simple back up sensor on a street car) that is fed through telemetry (ride height) and can be used to determine ground movement. There is no need for "loops" and the detection capability of the system is within .001 secs. The system data and timestamps can be compared to timestamps of the start system and timing, and movement can discerned within these parameters. Although data is collected live, analysis is delayed momentarily.

At minimum because it's not my place to do so, I can't confirm or deny that this is the system that was referred to in the press regarding Bottas reaction time. In any event, in addition to this equipment, there is a myriad of other devices on a modern F1 car that could be used in such a manner, that do not require embedded loops in the start box, to determine chassis movement from a static position. As all equipment has evolved in recent years, the way this information is obtain has also changed, but it never was based on loops in the asphalt in the start boxes.

Point: The car itself can determine it's movement anywhere, and doesn't need a static very expensive inaccurate cumbersome system embedded in asphalt in tracks across the globe.

So once again, in an effort to stop unfounded rumors, there are no loops in the start boxes. ](*,)

-Cheers
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