Silly Season 2017/2018

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Manoah2u
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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by Manoah2u » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:42 pm

The rumour is that Honda is about to make a deal with Toro Rosso.
Including sounds of more or less independant from RedBull, in other words. Toro Rosso might no longer be part of the RBR family, but i read that as a long shot.
still, RedBull can keep a sponsorship deal with them if they wish.

So as far as Gasly stepping in to replace Sainz, and at the end of the year Kvyat might be waved off goodbye,
then what will happen?

If Honda steps to Toro Rosso instead of Sauber [ perhaps also instead of Mclaren ], then expect Gasly to be accompanied by the Japanese test driver - IF Honda manages to make such a firm deal.

Either way, i don't think the junior programme pool will be such of a problem that they run out of drivers for next year.

RBR is covered comfortably. RB is known for completely renewing TR from time to time and i feel that time is coming.

Expect Gasly next year either way alongside who? Perhaps if Honda pairs, they have a say in it too, and perhaps they will no longer recruit or use TR for 2 development drivers but just 1, and at some point we might see the same in the mothership team.

Theres Gasly obviously but Niko Kari could be promoted too, who knows.
Still, where Honda ends, i expect to see Matushita anyway.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:41 am

Perez to Ferrari. Bottas can step up and compete with the best so can Checo.
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George-Jung
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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by George-Jung » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:58 am

I really do not hope Perez is the one who will be driving the other Ferrari.

For f*ck sake- this clearly needs to be Alonso!!

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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by iotar__ » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:55 am

George-Jung wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:58 am
I really do not hope Perez is the one who will be driving the other Ferrari.

For f*ck sake- this clearly needs to be Alonso!!
- Alonso would be losing to both Bottas and Hamilton at this stage if Ferrari is comparable. At his age Q suffers (Webber, Raikkonen), top performance is there but not all the time, whole season at 100% or close to it is impossible. Mistakes, especially with a risky style, happen more often than at prime (plenty of examples).
- It's all pointless anyway they said they didn't think about him and Marchionne doesn't care about results.
- Perez on average might not be quick enough over one lap, very skilful overall. From Grosjean-Bottas-Perez second best candidate left, depending on a team-mate.

http://en.f1i.com/news/273824-wolff-kee ... ainer.html Wolff: 'Keeping Bottas for 2018 a no brainer'
- Shocking development, although "looking at the performance" as Wolff put it, wasn't he ~0,75 slower in qualifying recently, for no apparent reason? Instead of talking about it and explaining they keep him instead, weird ;-)
-
Of course they didn't keep him yet, just talking about it.

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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by Gerhardsa » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:15 pm

iotar__ wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:55 am
George-Jung wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:58 am
I really do not hope Perez is the one who will be driving the other Ferrari.

For f*ck sake- this clearly needs to be Alonso!!
- Alonso would be losing to both Bottas and Hamilton at this stage if Ferrari is comparable.
I doubt that very much, but unless we get the matchup, I guess we will never know.

Manoah2u
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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by Manoah2u » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:06 pm

Let's wait how the season unfolds. Remember Alonso still said that he didn't want to stay and Ferrari and become 2nd and the occasional win but nothing more.
it could very well unfold just like Alonso 2012 in regards to Vettel, and then Ferrari is going to be nowhere again. Ferrari has definately lost ground to Mercedes compared to the start of the season. The way it's going now, they're gonna lose out once again. And that once again raises the question ; why on earth would 'Nando go back to the place he left exactly because of which is probably going to happen this year anyway.

Alonso will be at Mclaren or Mercedes, that's his only way to go.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

Phil
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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by Phil » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:40 pm

Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:06 pm
Remember Alonso still said that he didn't want to stay and Ferrari and become 2nd and the occasional win but nothing more.
Isnt that the problem right there? The big giant pink elephant in the room? How on earth can one feel sorry for a guy, however gifted he ma be, for giving up a potentially wdc winning car/team, not once, but TWICE within his career and still feel the entitlement is his to win a championship in what is essentially a team sport?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. (Ask the average Vettel fan what that's like.) --- bhall II

Manoah2u
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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by Manoah2u » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:03 pm

Are you allright?

He didn't get that there, so he left. His darn right, he's one of the best out there.
as for Mclaren before, that was due to the friction there, it wasn't right back then.

I sense a lot of anti-alonso-energy coming from you, perhaps you should give it a break.

and Ferrari now, finally? 5 years after the last marginal possibility? 5 YEARS. for real?
Ferrari might have had a chance last year if they didn't completely scr*w up their tactics so embarassingly bad.
As for this year, again, it remains to be seen where Ferrari will end.

The ONLY criticism regarding being in the wrong place the past years i'd say is why oh why Alonso did not sign with Mercedes this year instead of Bottas.

I think Mclaren was hugely mislead by Honda's 1-cylinder engine bank theory outcome. They expected it would work with all cylinders the same, and it seems Honda thought they found the golden solution, the golden egg-laying goose. Instead, their calculations were off and they shamed themselves deeply. Question still exists whether the concept is still potential or not, but the issue is offcourse how they are gonna implement it and fix it. that takes time.

Either way, it convinced Alonso to stay instead of leave. A decision he surely regrets by now. Unless Honda does fix their thing and we're gonna see a monster of an engine next year or at the end of this season. I don't think there's enough patience for 2020. so they'll have to do it end of this year /early next year, and do it fullscale 1:1 on a live testing machine.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

Phil
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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by Phil » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:32 pm

My only criticism is that it is IMO the reason why one of the few drivers who was voted being one of the best by most team principals in... 2012 (?) and surely other years too, has put himself in a position where he missed out on a WDC winning car. The logic "dont want to be runner up anymore" has lured him to a team that had been struggling to advance in the midfield and has gone no where the past 5 seasons.

How is that better?

Just think about, what if he hadnt black mailed McLaren back then? What if that relationship hadnt broken down? Maybe 2007 and/or 2008 would have been his and he'd be a 4 time WDC?

And this is the silly thread - i can be as critical as you can be positive or speculative. And instead of dreaming away about what fans might want to see and judging a driver purely by his driving ability, i am more interested in understanding why perhaps he is in the position he is, especially inspite of his talent and what his realistic options are.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. (Ask the average Vettel fan what that's like.) --- bhall II

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:30 pm

Alonso is a flawed genius. A magician behind the wheel but very petulant and poorly advised in the grand scheme of things. Yes he was five years with Ferrari, but how could he not see that Ferrari is the only other team that can challenge for the win in these regulations?
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

Manoah2u
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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by Manoah2u » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:46 pm

@phil Seems i mistook your point.

Putting it like that, yes, it has not been beneficial for him to move from Ferrari to Mclaren,
but on the other hand, how would people - not only the fans - look at him if he still was lingering on in Ferrari, hoping and fighting
for something that never is going to be - something Vettel might also sooner or later discover.
There has also been talk that Alonso didn't do on good foot with the new management, which further motivated him to leave Ferrari.

The only other place he could have been which would have been interesting is Mercedes - and that door was closed up untill last year.

It's also logical there is some time involved before picking up the fruits from an 'investment', that same went for Lewis when he changed
a still hopeful Mclaren though already dwindling down for Mercedes, where things didn't look so rosey and Schumacher was leaving, whom
couldn't achieve much either there.
The result didn't come first year either though offcourse it wasn't as dramatic as with Honda.

As for the blackmail thing, i don't think the finger can be pointed infinitaly at Alonso for that. Yes he was the 'whistleblower', but he was not the
cause of Mclaren's spygate scandal. That was Mclaren, Alonso 'merely' was at the wrong place at the wrong time and decided to not keep things to
himself.
It's interesting that Mclaren - including Ron Dennis - took him back no sweat, so i do wonder if it was so sour at all in regards to Alonso vs Mclaren.

And it's still a lot of ifs, IF he stayed.
IF Crashgate didn't happen, Massa might have been WDC and Lewis not.
IF he stayed at Mclaren, he could have 'stolen' enough wins from Lewis that he didn't become WDC, but the points total would have also meant that it remains a big if
whether he had a chance at the title and if Massa didn't walk away with it easier.

IF, If, if. that didn't happen.

He was at Ferrari since 2010 to 2014, that's 5 seasons, and 3 times was runner up for the WDC.

He has some bad luck though, he could for example been driving for RedBull in the RB4 and onwards, which would have seen him compete for the WDC in 2009 and onwards.
That didn't happen, but can you really blame him? RedBull was not the name back then that it has now, even though Adrian Newey went there. Who expected Brawn to snatch the
title in 2009 with Button?

He did the right thing to move to Ferrari for 2010 in some areas. He won several races and drove for the reds. Who wouldn't want to? Would it be a mistake for Perez to go for Ferrari instead of staying at Force India and PERHAPS getting the same results, and with Vettel there surely not a WDC title?

Alonso had a great stint at Ferrari but ultimately didn't get what he wanted with them, another title. I don't think Alonso is really the one to blame there. At one point you must decide to call it quits. he did, and went to Mclaren instead, knowingly that the first 2 years the least would not be an improvement. He specifically mentioned 'judge me in 3 years'.

So, 2015 season saw him start with Mclaren. That means if a Ferrari driver became WDC in 3 years including that season, he would have made the wrong decision.
2015 - nope. 2016 - nope. 2017 - perhaps.

he never specifically said judge my decision on whether i'm a WDC with Mclaren in the next 3 years. He simply mentioned if Ferrari became WDC in those years, it would have been - with hindsight - not the best decision.

And though 2017 is unfolding into a possible WDC title for Vettel with Ferrari, we're just half way there and a whole lot of bad luck and tech penalties for Lewis, with Vettel only 1 point ahead and Ferrari seemingly losing out the development battle to Mercedes after starting strong and promising. I must say, the faces at the Ferrari camp aren't looking too cheerful either, whereas Mercedes seems to be much calmer now.

So we could very well be seeing a repeat of 2012 and Alonso other runner-up battles, though it must be said only 2012 was really there for the taking, had it not been for Petrov being as wide as Max, Alonso could have won that title. And to be honest, i think that's exactly what is going to happen.
Hamilton imho - not fanboying here at all - is in a much better mental state compared to Vettel right now, and therefor, mentally has the edge. Prime example of Vettel's mental state was Baku. Vettel has to mature there still. When he eventually does, he will be a much stronger opponent then he already is, because Vettel definately IS a very worthy opponent.
But when he eventually loses out to the title, then Alonso's claim still stands.

And then 2018 will arrive and will be the judge all. 2017 is exciting but 2018 will be on another level i'd say. What will happen to Ferrari? What will RedBull do? What will Mclaren do?
Where will Alonso go? What will Mercedes do? Who will Ferrari sign? What will Renault do? What will Honda do aside of Mclaren? What will Kubica do?

Those 3 difficult painful years with Mclaren will quickly be forgotten when he grabs a win with Mclaren, or fight and hopefully grab the 2018 title with Mclaren-Honda [still hope].
And that would make those 3 years not only worth it, it would bury his Ferrari stint and put his Mclaren stint above it, and really, put Mclaren above Ferrari. It would also mean Mclaren turns out to be the only team that beats Mercedes since 2014 after 4 seasons of dominating [ala RedBull]. It would do a whole lot for the comptetition too making Mclaren a place to be again, and surely, continue his stint with Mclaren for another season IF there are healthy prospects of batteling for the WDC again the year after.

Either way, i don't think Alonso is eying a 4-WDC trophy on his list. I think he'll cal it quits when he snatches his 3rd and go for LeMans and indy.
Last edited by Manoah2u on Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

zeph
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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by zeph » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:06 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:30 pm
Alonso is a flawed genius. A magician behind the wheel but very petulant and poorly advised in the grand scheme of things. Yes he was five years with Ferrari, but how could he not see that Ferrari is the only other team that can challenge for the win in these regulations?
In 2014 Ferrari couldn't challenge didley. Alonso waited for the new regulations, thinking it would be Ferrari's chance to gain an advantage. But when it became obvious they had nothing, he asked to be released. Sure, they had an uptick in 2015, but nowhere close enough. They had another uptick at the beginning of this season, but if recent form is anything to go by, they may have lost that advantage.

Theoretically, if Hamilton bags another WDC this season, wouldn't that just prove Alonso's point?

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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by FrukostScones » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:29 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:30 pm
Alonso is a flawed genius. A magician behind the wheel but very petulant and poorly advised in the grand scheme of things. Yes he was five years with Ferrari, but how could he not see that Ferrari is the only other team that can challenge for the win in these regulations?
and I thought you were nuts.
Game Over! NVWSSV is here.

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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by Vasconia » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:55 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:30 pm
Alonso is a flawed genius. A magician behind the wheel but very petulant and poorly advised in the grand scheme of things. Yes he was five years with Ferrari, but how could he not see that Ferrari is the only other team that can challenge for the win in these regulations?
In fact He was in 2014 when regulations changed and Ferrari failed miserably to build a good PU. I think it was enough for him and I understand why he wanted to leave.

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Re: Silly Season 2017/2018

Post by djos » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:02 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:41 am
Perez to Ferrari. Bottas can step up and compete with the best so can Checo.
Doubt it, Perez has already shown conclusively he can't handle the pressure of driving for a top team back in the Maclaren Mercedes days.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.



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