2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Del Boy
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Del Boy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:41 pm

ZakB wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:54 pm
For all the Honda fans I suggest you read this, instead of basing your comments on thin air and McLaren hate.
But pre-season testing revealed serious shortcomings. The Honda engine was leaky, unreliable, and less powerful than the old design. It also shook uncontrollably, as the transmission produced terrible vibrations that weren't predicted during winter testing on Honda's Sakura dyno.
They drew up a three-stage development plan to achieve this by an agreed deadline. The first step was scheduled for May's Spanish Grand Prix, the second for the Canadian GP in June, the third and final step - to match the estimated Mercedes customer engine output - was meant to arrive in time for August's Belgian Grand Prix.

Honda brought updates to each of these races, but they were not sufficient. As its F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa admitted in the FIA press conference at Spa, Honda "failed" in its task, and was now in breach of the development plan agreed with McLaren, opening the door for separation and severance.
Renault said it was open to a partnership with McLaren on the same terms as Red Bull, and McLaren can count on the bonus of already dealing with Renault's fuel and lubricants supplier BP. McLaren also believes it can help Renault technically, having assisted development of certain elements of Honda's energy recovery systems.
Anticipating that Honda-Ilmor wouldn't succeed in its task, McLaren continued efforts to secure a supply of customer engines from Mercedes. The F1 team was supposedly reticent to agree to this, fearing an Alonso-driven McLaren would be a threat to its own prospects at certain tracks. Nevertheless, feeling it had the support of the Mercedes board, McLaren was confident.
McLaren estimates that a fully operational Renault engine, with BP fuel and works mapping, would produce 5bhp more than a current customer Mercedes engine, which it reckons is 15kw (20bhp) down on the works engines owing to software mapping it believes Mercedes only makes available for Hamilton and team-mate Valtteri Bottas in qualifying.
McLaren only wanted results, and wanted them yesterday, which added pressure on Honda and increased the likelihood of mistakes. Honda wanted to be better, but could never progress quickly or competently enough to satisfy McLaren's demands.

Once trust was lost, there was no real hope of reconciliation. So now, finally, after nearly three seasons of abject disappointment and underachievement, McLaren-Honda's second marriage is over.

A match made in heaven it ultimately was not. Rather a tale of great expectations that never came close to being fulfilled.
Doesn't sound that bad, does it. Everyone wins.

McLaren gets a works engine (not deal)
McLaren keeps Alonso
BP can develop fuel for two teams
Toro Rosso gets funding and free engines
Honda can develop without pressure
Honda can move over to Red Bull if they get their act together
Good post. Most of this forum has been trying to big up Honda and belittle McLaren for the last few years. The expectations were very high because McLaren has endured 7 poor years (by their standards) and Honda engine deal seemed like a good one. I remember the RA168-E-V6 and the McLaren Honda glory days, but the recent Honda history isn't that inspiring and I'm including 2006 to present day. They have completely missed the whole energy recovery principal of the new regulations and as McLaren said some months ago they 'seem lost' and that has been bourne out at every race weekend, when update after update fails to deliver power or reliability.
Also I expect Peter Pedromo is looking forward to evaluating his aero solutions at the speed they were designed for because you can bet his team designed the MCL32 to be travelling at 10-15kph faster.
These engines have a 3 years left before being changed and I think McLaren could end up becoming an engine builder for 2021.
Slighty off topic but I wonder if McLaren can be of assistance to Renault after all they at least know the architecture of 3/4 F1 hybrid engines and I'm sure Honda have showed McLaren every mm of their engine and ERS!!

Thunder18
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Thunder18 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:54 pm

"I wonder if McLaren can be of assistance to Renault after all they at least know the architecture of 3/4 F1 hybrid engines and I'm sure Honda have showed McLaren every mm of their engine and ERS!!"

Was just thinking that.... How much "gardening leave" does Boullier and Co have to take now that they know Honda's current path and have opted for another??

ZakB
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by ZakB » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:04 pm

Thunder18 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:54 pm
"I wonder if McLaren can be of assistance to Renault after all they at least know the architecture of 3/4 F1 hybrid engines and I'm sure Honda have showed McLaren every mm of their engine and ERS!!"

Was just thinking that.... How much "gardening leave" does Boullier and Co have to take now that they know Honda's current path and have opted for another??
I'm pretty sure both won't share any technical details about stuff that can be potentially used next year.

RS200E
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by RS200E » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:30 pm

RedNEO wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:21 pm
ZakB wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:54 pm
For all the Honda fans I suggest you read this, instead of basing your comments on thin air and McLaren hate.
But pre-season testing revealed serious shortcomings. The Honda engine was leaky, unreliable, and less powerful than the old design. It also shook uncontrollably, as the transmission produced terrible vibrations that weren't predicted during winter testing on Honda's Sakura dyno.
They drew up a three-stage development plan to achieve this by an agreed deadline. The first step was scheduled for May's Spanish Grand Prix, the second for the Canadian GP in June, the third and final step - to match the estimated Mercedes customer engine output - was meant to arrive in time for August's Belgian Grand Prix.

Honda brought updates to each of these races, but they were not sufficient. As its F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa admitted in the FIA press conference at Spa, Honda "failed" in its task, and was now in breach of the development plan agreed with McLaren, opening the door for separation and severance.
Renault said it was open to a partnership with McLaren on the same terms as Red Bull, and McLaren can count on the bonus of already dealing with Renault's fuel and lubricants supplier BP. McLaren also believes it can help Renault technically, having assisted development of certain elements of Honda's energy recovery systems.
Anticipating that Honda-Ilmor wouldn't succeed in its task, McLaren continued efforts to secure a supply of customer engines from Mercedes. The F1 team was supposedly reticent to agree to this, fearing an Alonso-driven McLaren would be a threat to its own prospects at certain tracks. Nevertheless, feeling it had the support of the Mercedes board, McLaren was confident.
McLaren estimates that a fully operational Renault engine, with BP fuel and works mapping, would produce 5bhp more than a current customer Mercedes engine, which it reckons is 15kw (20bhp) down on the works engines owing to software mapping it believes Mercedes only makes available for Hamilton and team-mate Valtteri Bottas in qualifying.
McLaren only wanted results, and wanted them yesterday, which added pressure on Honda and increased the likelihood of mistakes. Honda wanted to be better, but could never progress quickly or competently enough to satisfy McLaren's demands.

Once trust was lost, there was no real hope of reconciliation. So now, finally, after nearly three seasons of abject disappointment and underachievement, McLaren-Honda's second marriage is over.

A match made in heaven it ultimately was not. Rather a tale of great expectations that never came close to being fulfilled.
Doesn't sound that bad, does it. Everyone wins.

McLaren gets a works engine (not deal)
McLaren keeps Alonso
BP can develop fuel for two teams
Toro Rosso gets funding and free engines
Honda can develop without pressure
Honda can move over to Red Bull if they get their act together
Thanks for sharing with everyone. I'm just so relieved that McLaren did it. Also kudos to Renault for being good sports about it! Bring on 2018!
Looking forward to 2018 now.
Also looking forward to the McLaren Renault thread so there will eventually be no Honda fanboys, sick of them.

Great post by ZakB. Really sums it up. Sometimes I think people aren't actually watching the races the way they have tried to stick up for Honda and demonize McLaren. It takes a very strange person to post something that's the opposite of what's actually happening, more so if they continually post several times week after week - year after year.

Sadly the disillusioned Honda fanboys will still pop in the 2018 thread to gloat at McLaren Renault not getting past the top 3 teams, maybe even will be 5th fastest after Renault, but at least it's better than where McLaren would have been with Honda.

Eventually they will move on to the almost derilict STR Honda thread :D

Del Boy
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Del Boy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:36 pm

RS200E wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:30 pm
RedNEO wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:21 pm
ZakB wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:54 pm
For all the Honda fans I suggest you read this, instead of basing your comments on thin air and McLaren hate.

Doesn't sound that bad, does it. Everyone wins.

McLaren gets a works engine (not deal)
McLaren keeps Alonso
BP can develop fuel for two teams
Toro Rosso gets funding and free engines
Honda can develop without pressure
Honda can move over to Red Bull if they get their act together
Thanks for sharing with everyone. I'm just so relieved that McLaren did it. Also kudos to Renault for being good sports about it! Bring on 2018!
Looking forward to 2018 now.
Also looking forward to the McLaren Renault thread so there will eventually be no Honda fanboys, sick of them.

Great post by ZakB. Really sums it up. Sometimes I think people aren't actually watching the races the way they have tried to stick up for Honda and demonize McLaren. It takes a very strange person to post something that's the opposite of what's actually happening, more so if they continually post several times week after week - year after year.

Sadly the disillusioned Honda fanboys will still pop in the 2018 thread to gloat at McLaren Renault not getting past the top 3 teams, maybe even will be 5th fastest after Renault, but at least it's better than where McLaren would have been with Honda.

Eventually they will move on to the almost derilict STR Honda thread :D
Exactly and lets not forget McLaren are divorcing Honda. Honda would love to be supplying McLaren and they've been slapped in the face.

ALO_Power
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Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:53 pm

Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by ALO_Power » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:47 pm

A very sad day for McLaren and everyone that closely followed and believed in the McLaren-Honda project. Extremely gutting. I don't know how people can be happy about a temporary "power" fix that will be masked by more issues. That's just terrible. McLaren is on rails to become the new Williams. They lost the significant money, they lost the works status, they lost the ability to have tailor-made engines for their chassis and so on. They ditched Honda on the most critical part of the progress curve that will start jumping upwards. There's nothing positive on this. McLaren-Honda will never shine again and all of us closely following this project just lost 3 years of our lives that will never be paid back by watching this glorious project on the podium. A huge loss of 3 years not only for McLaren but also for Alonso and the story doesn't end here. The future is dull as well. Next year, be sure Renault engine will still be behind Ferrari and Mercedes and quite possibly on par or even behind Honda ! (Don't tell me that Sainz moved to Renault because he saw something. Sainz moved to Renault because it was the best for HIM. He wanted a chance on the Red Bull team, he knew he would never get it with Verstappen and Ricciardo around so he did the best for him, to move to a works top team that will get better and better and maybe if lucky challenge for titles somewhen. And no, don't get excited about McLaren, because even if they make best P.U which is impossible, they will still be a customer like Williams to Mercedes.) Let alone that Renault now is a works team so all McLaren will get is a customer engine of the 3rd best manufacturer (if not 4th). Also, Renault will design their engines to work best for their own chassis so a great middle finger for McLaren. Possibly next year the chassis won't be nice as this one and will be mediocre thanks to the late development and thanks to the fact that they will have to bolt on whatever Renault gives to them (another well-known transition year!). So yea, if fundamental issues like 2016 appear, everyone will bash McLaren that heeyyy now u got Renault engines BRUUH and ur chassis suck bruuh ha ! Very bad things. So yea, the best thing McLaren can get in 2018 is few podiums with some luck. Also, anyone talked about reliability ??? 2018 will be the year that Alonso's fury will reach maximum levels when he will be retiring with a Renault engine. Verstappen retired in almost half of the races. So yea, great stuff. And while having all of that we will possibily have Honda beating us with Toro Rosso. Then you will say, come on Red Bull is in the same boat. NO ! Red Bull now is in a golden boat thanks to McLaren's stupidity ! They will run Honda power in few years, be a proper works team and start collecting titles like in past. So yea, rip McLaren-Honda and rip all of our hopes and time spent on this project from day 1. And probably rip Alonso too since he's stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Alonso Fan
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Location: Next to Alonso in the Mclaren Garage (I wish!)

Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Alonso Fan » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:01 pm

I sincerely hope mclaren produce a great chassis next year.
MVRC - SHM Racing

techman
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:25 am

Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by techman » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:05 pm

alonso was reason why mclaren ditch honda. alonso gave the ultimatom for mclaren to drop honda if they are to retain him . mclaren listened to him . alonso is the last person to listen. he made terrible decision. and this could be another. shame

HPD
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by HPD » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:06 pm

In 2021 there will be new engine rules. Who will have the advantage? Teams with work status.

With Experiences:
Mercedes
Ferrari
Renault
Red Bull Honda.

No experiences:
New Engine Suppliers

And red bull knows it 8)

loner
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by loner » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:14 pm

hemichromis wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:09 am
I remained sceptical about the split until Bernie was featured in F1i:

"The Renault deal is all done. Alonso staying is super news," said Ecclestone.

"But I can't see why McLaren will be any happier with Renault than they are with Honda.

"It wasn't Honda's fault things didn't work out, it was McLaren's.

"Every day they had a fight about everything, instead of working with them, which was a little bit stupid."

http://en.f1i.com/news/279497-279497.html

If Bernie believes it's all done....
kinda confirmed my theory about in reality who ditched who.

Raleigh
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Raleigh » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:35 pm

For Fernando at least the move makes sense, he's got perhaps 2 competitive seasons left and a McLaren-Renault package is a viable race-winner much the same as Red Bull now.

For McLaren though the deal seems like a mistake, they are trading works status for a temporary performance advantage, and not even a massive gain as the Renault is no Mercedes or Ferrari.

RedNEO
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by RedNEO » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:44 pm

RS200E wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:30 pm
RedNEO wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:21 pm
ZakB wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:54 pm
For all the Honda fans I suggest you read this, instead of basing your comments on thin air and McLaren hate.













Doesn't sound that bad, does it. Everyone wins.

McLaren gets a works engine (not deal)
McLaren keeps Alonso
BP can develop fuel for two teams
Toro Rosso gets funding and free engines
Honda can develop without pressure
Honda can move over to Red Bull if they get their act together
Thanks for sharing with everyone. I'm just so relieved that McLaren did it. Also kudos to Renault for being good sports about it! Bring on 2018!
Looking forward to 2018 now.
Also looking forward to the McLaren Renault thread so there will eventually be no Honda fanboys, sick of them.

Great post by ZakB. Really sums it up. Sometimes I think people aren't actually watching the races the way they have tried to stick up for Honda and demonize McLaren. It takes a very strange person to post something that's the opposite of what's actually happening, more so if they continually post several times week after week - year after year.

Sadly the disillusioned Honda fanboys will still pop in the 2018 thread to gloat at McLaren Renault not getting past the top 3 teams, maybe even will be 5th fastest after Renault, but at least it's better than where McLaren would have been with Honda.

Eventually they will move on to the almost derilict STR Honda thread :D
Couldn't have said it better myself. Bring on the positive vibes next year! :D

techman
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by techman » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:48 pm

There is nothing stoping redbull beating mclaren 2018. mclaren high drag chassis will be exposed, no more hiding behind the engine now in 2018. 2018 will expose the truth behind mclaren and honda and mclaren will have nowhere to hide

Chicane
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Chicane » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:12 pm

Isn't it funny to assume that a data driven professionally run organization like Mclaren will take a decision of this magnitude in an arbitrary fashion?

Didn't Zak clearly mention that they will sit down with cleverer guys who know a thing or two about engine and take a call?

Mclaren have the data about what Honda have now and their plans for next season. I can understand people not liking the decision Mclaren have made and i respect that but Mclaren in my opinion have made a decision taking a plethora of factors in to consideration.

I can understand the sentiment that Honda may turn it around but Renault will also make progress for next year. After all they have already trained their focus completely on 2018, have three teams doing miles now and will be in preseason testing 2018.

According to Mclaren the progress Honda will likely make for next year is not going to be enough. Now their assessment will be based on a lot of facts and hard information available to them and merely on hunch that Honda ''may'' turn it around they cannot just jump in to next season and risk having another season languishing at the back of the grid with the Saubers.

I actually admire Honda for sticking around despite being rejected by Mclaren as it shows competitive spirit. In fact i myself would be keenly watching their progress next year as to how they will do. However i feel Mclaren simply could not wait any longer with motivation levels at an all time low, less points at this stage than in 2015, risk of technical staff deserting etc.

Thunders
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Thunders » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:14 pm

Well Kudos to Renault for delivering Engines to Red Bull and McLaren while still building up their own Works Team to fight for the Top.

Would have loved to see the McLaren Honda collaboration to come good but i guess Time was just running out for McLaren to wait for a good PU.



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