European GP 2008

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:08 am

I can see both sides of this argument, the issue has shown the lack of any agreement in how to use Pitlane in the race, what I think is needed is the Drivers, Stewards, Fia etc sitting down and agreeing what is and isnt allowed.
scarbs
 
Joined: 8 Oct 2003
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:43 am

To pour more petrol on the fire, the FIA penalised Karun Chandhok in the GP2 race on the Saturday with a drive through penalty - the offense? Pulling the same move as Massa.
myurr
 
Joined: 20 Mar 2008

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:58 am

In many other series globally its a drive through penalty and in F1 its been totally inconsistent how does one not consider that Ferrari are not the favoured ones [-X - mind you Kimi's incident with the fuel rig should have brought a penalty also - downright dangerous [-X
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson
Chaparral
 
Joined: 1 May 2008
Location: New England District NSW Australia

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:54 pm

Chaparral wrote:In many other series globally its a drive through penalty and in F1 its been totally inconsistent how does one not consider that Ferrari are not the favoured ones [-X - mind you Kimi's incident with the fuel rig should have brought a penalty also - downright dangerous [-X


Toro Rosso did the same with Vettel in Germany, so that Alonso had nowhere to go and actually had to leave the pit lane exit. Vettel wasn't even investigated. And regarding Kimi's incident, we've seen it a few times in the past, with no further consequences. We've seen Montoya overtaking his mechanic, we've seen Button eating the lollipop man in a similar fashion to Kimi, and we've even seen Sutil exiting the Magny Cours pit lane with the whole fuel rig. That was dangerous. Before we forget, we've seen a rookie Kazuki have a go at his mechanics in Brazil last year as a practice session to the Alonso incident too.

I find saying Ferrari has gotten preferential treatment in these two scenarios a bit excessive.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr
Miguel
 
Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:37 pm

With all due respect Miguel its the FIA (sorry their stewardship at each GP) that is to blame for the inconsistancy in the rules regarding pit lane activity - as I'd said in most formulae that sort of incident would have drawn a drive through penalty and does (in a consistent manner) - lets get that straight. :) As for KR's incident - thats just not acceptable is it - I dont care who's fault it is do you.

As an aside - Ferrari just for the mere fact they receive $20 mill USD + per annum just to turn up at each GP means (yes they are favoured) in most circumstances do you not agree - blame Ecclestone for that one he did the deal a decade ago :)
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson
Chaparral
 
Joined: 1 May 2008
Location: New England District NSW Australia

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:46 pm

Most people do not necessarily mind what the punishment is so long as each offence results in the same punishment. At present, there is no published list of penalties. As a result a punishment seems to amount to a lottery. It is not just pitlane incidents that have been unevenly handled, there have been SC incidents too. Parking on a driving line, blocking, is treated with much the same hit and miss approach.
Williams and proud of it.
pgj
 
Joined: 22 Mar 2006

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:56 pm

Chaparral wrote:With all due respect Miguel its the FIA (sorry their stewardship at each GP) that is to blame for the inconsistancy in the rules regarding pit lane activity - as I'd said in most formulae that sort of incident would have drawn a drive through penalty and does (in a consistent manner) - lets get that straight. :) As for KR's incident - thats just not acceptable is it - I dont care who's fault it is do you.


Regarding Massa, I don't follow many series, so I can't tell you what is the usual punishment in those cases. I just pointed out that in the last cases we've had in F1, not even an investigation was proposed. We'd have one more precedent had Hamilton braked in Montreal.

With respect to Kimi, it is indeed shameful that he hit his mechanic, but again I've seen this so many times by many other drivers. I'm not saying we should establish a policy of "run over your mechanics or die", but just that the FIA doesn't really have much say here. Unless they take Kimi's superlicense, of course. Being concerned about coherence and consistence, if they punished Kimi here they would be acting differently to any other case I've seen in F1.

As an aside - Ferrari just for the mere fact they receive $20 mill USD + per annum just to turn up at each GP means (yes they are favoured) in most circumstances do you not agree - blame Ecclestone for that one he did the deal a decade ago :)


Yes, I know that Ferrari gets preferential economic treatment, and I feel that as profoundly unjust. But agreeing with you there doesn't mean I have to agree with you in that the treatment in Valencia has been preferential.
I am not amazed by F1 cars in Monaco. I want to see them driving in the A8 highway: Variable radius corners, negative banking, and extreme narrowings that Tilke has never dreamed off. Oh, yes, and "beautiful" weather tops it all.

"Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future." Niels Bohr
Miguel
 
Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:02 pm

I do not believe that Ferrari could or should be punished in anyway for the Kimi incident. These things have happened many times and no-one has been punished and rightly so, these are just accidents.

Back to the Massa incident, this was dangerous and could have been avoided. He was released, by his team, straight into Sutil's path and then he made no attempt to get out of the way of Sutil or brake and drop in behind him, in fact he almost drove Sutil into the pit wall. This incident was then compounded by the fact that the pit lane was very narrow and through luck no major incident occurred.

I agree that Vettel should have been punished in Germany, but it is wrong to say Massa shouldn't be punished because Vettel wasn't.

Pit lane racing this year has escalated and we are going to see a bad accident sooner or later. What is the point of imposing a pit lane safety speed limit and then letting drivers race in the pits or drive side by side down the pit lane. Hamilton’s incident in Canada was compounded by Raikkonen and Kubica being side by side in the pits and when Hamilton braked (granted too late) he had no where to go.

FIA has not only shown again that it is totally inconsistent in the issuing of penalties and punishment but also it has now set a poor example in the face hat dangerous driving in the pits now will be meet with a 10K fine from a multi-million dollar budget.
Project Four
 
Joined: 24 Jan 2008

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:06 pm

Oh climb down that wall!

He dident force Sutil anywhere, Sutil kept his path, and Massa did the same.
There wasent any incident, they JUST. DROVE. ALONGSIDE. ONE. ANOTHER.
The only way to close a stupid question is to give a smart answer
woohoo
 
Joined: 10 Aug 2008

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:09 pm

woohoo wrote:There wasent any incident, they JUST. DROVE. ALONGSIDE. ONE. ANOTHER.

Which of course is dangerous in a narrow and crowded pit lane.

Chap & Miguel - whether there is any validity to the suspicions of the FIA favoring Ferrari isn't as important as the fact that those suspicions exist and are widely believed. The FIA know this, and it should be obvious to them that they need to take extra care in any decisions regarding Ferrari to make sure that they appear impartial. They don't, for whatever reason you might choose to believe, and by not doing so they reinforce those suspicions among the fans.
Pup
 
Joined: 8 May 2008

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:17 pm

Not here to comment on the race, since I was unable to watch it, despite planning my Sunday down to perfection days before the race. When out of nowhere my family asks me to make some unpredicted purchases for me to bring back to the US from Mexico #-o , making me lose pretty much all of my Sunday morning.

But I was extremely dissapointed with what happened to Raikkonen, that's two engine failures in a row for Ferrari. Apparently from all the talks and news on the net it is from a broken conrod. Which is quite surprising given the high level of quality expected from a supplier, especially in Formula One. I suspect MAHLE has already been contacted by people from Maranello about that...

And as is the norm in a street circuit, not many racing lines to be found. I can't say it comes as a surprise to be honest, but it is what it is. If the FOM or whoever mainly concentrate on circuits with great physical appeal- great scenery, turism, attractions, etc- than this is what they will get. Although there might be a change in how the race pans out next season, seeing how the cars will be quite different in terms of aero and mechanical grip.
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"You do it, then it's done." - Kimi Räikkönen

Por las buenas soy amigo, por las malas soy campeón.
mx_tifoso
 
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Location: North America

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:28 pm

The argument of "no harm, no foul" does not apply to the application of safety and it's measures. Just because injuries or incidents did not occur, this does not define the situation as "safe".
It doesn't matter who these safety rules apply to, be it Ferrari or McLaren, or anyone else. The same safety rules and procedures apply to all.
The releasing of a pitted car into the traffic must be done in a safe manner, it's right there in the rules.
Beer is cheaper than therapy.
DaveKillens
 
Joined: 20 Jan 2005

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:50 pm

Here is a video of the Massa-Sutil incident:



IMO, the person in most possible harm is the camera man almost right in front of the Ferrari pit, kneeling down inches away from the path of the exiting car. It's a race, let the cars race! Each driver knows the possible consequences of his actions, let them be the judge, since its their race result which hangs in the balance. If anything should be done, it should be the removal of tv crews from the racing areas, including the pitlane during qualy and race events.
Forum guide: read before posting

"You do it, then it's done." - Kimi Räikkönen

Por las buenas soy amigo, por las malas soy campeón.
mx_tifoso
 
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Location: North America

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:10 pm

woohoo wrote:Oh climb down that wall!

He dident force Sutil anywhere, Sutil kept his path, and Massa did the same.
There wasent any incident, they JUST. DROVE. ALONGSIDE. ONE. ANOTHER.


I suggest you watch the incident again then, and if the normal line out of the pits is the line Sutil took then you are correct and he did not force Sutil anywhere, but I very much doubt that Sutil would purposely drive his nice new tires into all the dirt by the wall.

And if you carry on watching the video you will also see that two cars can not exit the pit lane together, perhaps that why Massa took the normal line out of pits and not the Sutil line along the wall.
.
Project Four
 
Joined: 24 Jan 2008

Post Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:06 pm

gabsy wrote:
Ray wrote:Hamilton tends to crash others out of contention though. He has a real bad habit of rearending people.

Sad to see Kimi blow a motor, but he just seems to not really care. What's up with him this year?


It's almost as if Kimi is content with his 1 World Championship.
I really would not be suprised to see him retire at the end of next year to be replaced by Alonso.
Im still going with the Alonso to Ferrari for 2009 theory!!! If Raikkonen dont start performing on the same level as Felipe then Luca is gonna pay him off at the end of this season and Fernando will be joining Massa next year!!! Kimi says he can still do it, but it has to be too late for him now, as Ferrari have to put all the resources behind the driver with the best chance of winning, and that looks to be Massa atm.....Ferrari surely wont make a complete balls up of it like McIdiots did last year letting both drivers fight each other until the last race!!!! :D
Racehound
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008

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