WhiteBlue wrote:

Tomba wrote:

WhiteBlue wrote:2. The cooling vent hitting the tyres were smoothing them up making for a simmilar behavious compared to the Michelins with the very dynamic side wall that they knew.

Is that your own assumption or do you have proof of that. Personally I'm pretty sure that the rear tyres were not the problem, but rather the harder sidewall of the front tyres. Renault have required a year or so to fully understand the problems their car had with the Bridgestone tyres, and the result is paying off....

no, I have no proof for this. I'm just deducting. Perhaps I should be a bit less positive about it when I talk about my own conclusions.

The long version is that the Michies had an extremely flexible side wall which was rumored to be achieved by incorporating a thin steel band. That transpired from the 2005 Indy desaster where they had a resonance problem that destroyed the side walls.

Renault were known to have raced mass dampers in front and rear to take advantage of the superior traction of the soft side walls without suffering too much penalty over bumps and curbs.

During this season Renault got back into the mass damper business with the J-Dampers and sure enough they look for compensation of the stiffer Bridgestone design. You reported the tyre heating aero trick. It seems to fit together.

Regarding the heating of the front tyres I guess that is less of a problem because they receive a ton of heat from the brakes. front brakes dissipate the lion share of the brake energy and they could have adjusted their ducting without someone knowing it when they kicked in with the J-damper. they may have left the rear to fiddle with for later because it did not have the immediate advantage they could initially achieve at the front.

thinking about this I can imagine that the wheel fairings play a big role in keeping the rims hot. they appeared around the time when J-dampers started to spread in the paddock and it was always denied that they have a primary aero function. what if they are mainly there to stop convection cool the wheels and thus the tyres?

Lol
Please, are you even an engineer.

If you are, you're pretty poor at proving a point and full of unsupported theory/assumption.

"It seems to fit together"

I will never forget that.

Tomba, I really agree with Conceptualist's post. It sums up Whiteblue perfectly. It's evident in most of his posts [that I have read - since I don't frequent here as much]

http://www.f1technical.net/development/206

To toot my own horn, I came up with this idea back in March 02, 2007.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3980&p=47552&hilit=heat#p47552

It's good to see a team has finally incorporated this simple solution to an ongoing problem.

ISLAMATRON wrote:

TRICKLE69 wrote:You are completely off. The Toyota's are faster now then at the begining of the season. The Renault's have just gotten even faster then the Toyota's. Also I do not think Bmw have gone slower they just have not developed as much as their competitors. Both Renault and Toro Rosso have by far made the most progress this year!

Every team is faster now than at the beginning of the season. If they arent then they shouldnt even be in F1, we are talking about speed relative to the leaders.
The Toyota's are as erratic as John McCain, their pace is very circuit & weather specific. Torro Rosso doesnt count because they switched cars mid season. By the numbers FIF1 has made the biggest improvement relative to the leaders.

Please. The TF108 this year has been a fairly stable and consistent performer. Also keep in mind Glock is a technical driver and very good with car set-up. The TF108 this year has been strong at tracks where historically Toyota achieved poor results, and they've also been strong traditionally at tracks that favour their cars.

You can thank Pascal Vasselon for the consistency of the TF108. He's worked at Toyota for a number of years, but before that he was a Michelin engineer. He has a very good understanding of how tires work together with a chassis, and what effect car balance has on the dynamic between chassis and tires. Also having Mark Gillan as head of aero has helped Toyota as well, although he came to the team after development on the TF108 had started.

Usually in the past Toyota machines would struggle in the rain, but this year the TF108 has shown strong pace in the rain from both drivers, which means it's the car, not just driver differences.

The reason why the TF108 seems inconsistent is because the team has had some reliability troubles this year, combined with some bad luck. Trulli has already had two first-corner incidents with Bourdais this season, both of which damaged his car and made it impossible to score points. In both situations, no penalty of any sort was given. Frankly, what happened at Shanghai in the first corner can be called a racing incident, but what happened at Spa was different as Bourdais literally rear-ended Trulli for no identifiable reason. Glock had bad luck at Fuji, as the horrible reliability of Newey-designed cars struck again with Coulthard's Red Bull. The debris from the RBR sent Glock into a kerb and the car flying, which then damaged something on the landing. Meanwhile Bourdais got that penalty at Fuji which made no sense. Bourdais deserved a penalty at Spa much more than he did at Fuji.

There is no big secret to Renault's performance increase. Renault has suddenly been more competitive since Monza. Recall that it was in Monza that Renault's "reliability upgrade" for their engine was approved by the FIA. So since Monza, Renault has pretty much been racing with a stronger engine. Why do you think Renault is now quiet and not complaining about the unequal level of the engines on the grid? Now Renault has not confirmed this, but it is only logical.

Also there is Alonso; Alonso in terms of driver skill and his ability to set up a car is worth a few tenths alone.

BMW has greatly slowed development of their car focusing on next year, and Toyota seem to have slowed a bit as well. Renault has put a lot of effort into this final part of the season. Also as far as I know Toyota has not taken advantage of the "reliability" loophole in the engine freeze. I have no proof, but I believe after the "Monza upgrade" the Renaults now make more HP than the Toyotas.

bizadfar wrote:[

Lol
Please, are you even an engineer.

If you are, you're pretty poor at proving a point and full of unsupported theory/assumption.

"It seems to fit together"

I will never forget that.

Tomba, I really agree with Conceptualist's post. It sums up Whiteblue perfectly. It's evident in most of his posts [that I have read - since I don't frequent here as much]

Yes, I am an engineer and have been for many years. I just don't think that it makes sense to be unpolite or personally agressive to make a point in a discussion that is speculative.

I also see benefits in the method of dialectics. You propose a hypothesis and note the points for and against it. By this method you shold have the intellectual honesty to recognize advances in knowledge contributed by others. after all that is why we discuss and not to bath in the glory of support by our peers.

Is it not possible that the high energy air being vented behind(if I see correctly) the rear tyres is reducing the drag induced by them?

Really enjoy reading the comments and am seriously dissapointed with the pathetic personal attacks... surely this is not the forum for that??

Gary Anderson (F1 designer in a past life) writes in Autosport

"When the air hits the front or rear tyres, most of the flow separates and goes around the side of the tyres. However, looking at the right side of the car, the air from about the two o'clock position gets accelerated over the top of the tyre, inducing lift on the wheel assembly. This duct will introduce some high velocity airflow into this area, reducing the potential for lift. Quantifying this sort of development has only really come about thanks to CFD knowledge. The duct will also reduce the negative effect the turbulent airflow has on the outer extermities of the under-surface of the rear wing main plane"

BTW - I don't think that Renault has suddenly got quicker, the have made a steady improvement and also FA has re-discovered his mojo.

Or as the Matrix would put it....

"He is beginning to Belive"

Let's not discount the contribution of Fred! He's the underlying reason that rig is dialed
If (I know! I know big if) Mike was a full time pilot. S.D. wouldn't be mystified and going into the last race of the season not understanding the lack of performance and grip of the F2008 contender. That car would have also been dialed!

Btw If Fred was a Ferrari pilot this season It would all ready be game over!
Ciao

agree, that Alonso is eventually making headlines for his driving instead of his bitching. a nice change from the past 18 months. he should keep that up and eventually he will find himself in a top car again.