Rule Interpretation - Double deck diffusers

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:27 am

3 Teams have lodged a protest. Renault, Ferrari and Redbull. BMW failed to lodge it's paperwork in time.

Interestingly, McLaren and it's associated team FIF1 arn't complaining...

From what I've read, McLaren and BMW are ready to run double decker arrangements and if my source is correct, FIF1 had one in the wind tunnel in January!
- Axle
axle
 
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Location: Norfolk, UK

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:31 am

jwielage wrote:
Rules are rules, you are either within it, or breaking it. It's black and white.



freedom_brawn,

Im not sure what is more glaring, the juvenile simplicity of your argument or your blatant favoritism toward the Honda, err... I mean BRAWN team. No offense but I'm pretty sure this is a discussion thread not a billboard for your personal fact maker, uhh.... I mean opinion. But other than that post away :D

Regards,
jwielage

sorry i should have chosen my words more carefully im just not having a very good day. sorry.
freedom_honda
 
Joined: 23 Jul 2007

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:50 am

axle wrote:3 Teams have lodged a protest. Renault, Ferrari and Redbull. BMW failed to lodge it's paperwork in time.

Interestingly, McLaren and it's associated team FIF1 arn't complaining...

From what I've read, McLaren and BMW are ready to run double decker arrangements and if my source is correct, FIF1 had one in the wind tunnel in January!


http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/photolarge.ph ... =1102-3702


Diffuser hidden behind blanking plates. Axle's sources seem to be good!

(apologies, I can't seem to get the image tag to work so use the link)
bonjon1979
 
Joined: 11 Feb 2009

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:22 am

bonjon1979 wrote:
axle wrote:3 Teams have lodged a protest. Renault, Ferrari and Redbull. BMW failed to lodge it's paperwork in time.

Interestingly, McLaren and it's associated team FIF1 arn't complaining...

From what I've read, McLaren and BMW are ready to run double decker arrangements and if my source is correct, FIF1 had one in the wind tunnel in January!


http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/photolarge.ph ... =1102-3702


Diffuser hidden behind blanking plates. Axle's sources seem to be good!

(apologies, I can't seem to get the image tag to work so use the link)


This seems a better picture of the (flimsy looking) cover:
Image

I can definitely make out a brawn style diffuser shape...
Tbox
 
Joined: 11 Mar 2009

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:29 am

Is there anything wrong with the following interpretation, is that the loophole that is being used:

If one considers the FIA regulations, the floor behind the rear wheel centerline (the diffuser) must have a single continuous surface (F1 technical regulations 3.12.7). The floor ahead of the rear wheel centerline must be flat and lie only on two planes, on the reference plane with a minimum width of 300mms and maximum with of 500mms, and on the step plane which is 50mms above this (3.12.2).

Nowhere, however, does it say that the diffuser surface must meet the floor in a continuous fashion. Furthermore, the diffuser regulations state that the lower part of the diffuser should be 50mms above the reference plane (i.e. at the level of the floor), but only starting at 250mms away from the centerline (3.12.8 ).

This means there exists a 100mm width section starting at 150mm away from the car centerline ( (250-300/2)mm ) where the diffuser can meet the floor in a noncontinuous fashion. Furthermore, it may even be that the middle section of the diffuser (within 250mm from the centerline) can extend even below the reference plane, but of this I am not so sure (perhaps someone can point out the relevant regulation?).
Gecko
 
Joined: 5 Sep 2006

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:59 pm

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73915
THEY ARE LEGAL - PROTEST REJECTED
- Axle
axle
 
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Location: Norfolk, UK

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:01 pm

Sanity rules.

It's going to be VERY interesting to see what the other teams do now
Henning
 
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Location: Kent, England

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:04 pm

Henning wrote:Sanity rules.

It's going to be VERY interesting to see what the other teams do now

will pull rod make RB have no space to copy that?
Scania
 
Joined: 26 Nov 2008

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:08 pm

Henning wrote:Sanity rules.

It's going to be VERY interesting to see what the other teams do now


Appeal. #-o
- Axle
axle
 
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Location: Norfolk, UK

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:08 pm

axle wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73915
THEY ARE LEGAL - PROTEST REJECTED


i'm expecting a long, drawn out fight from the cars without the diffuser.:(
Callum
 
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:11 pm

they will appeal the stewards ruling, so go to the court. That's what will happen.
vall
 
Joined: 4 Nov 2008

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:22 pm

Scania wrote:
Henning wrote:Sanity rules.

It's going to be VERY interesting to see what the other teams do now

will pull rod make RB have no space to copy that?


It's rumoured that this is the case, along with the design of their gearbox.
myurr
 
Joined: 20 Mar 2008

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:27 pm

jwielage wrote:
It's such a shame that a debate is even necessary.

The FIA should police the rules - and that should be the end of it.


I agree completely. The FIA should have been clarifying these rules early in winter testing to avoid such a situation.

---- WARNING, The following section is ENTIRELY CONJECTURE----
While I hate to be a conspiracy theorist but I think the origin of this dilemna can be traced back to the non FOTA powers in F1.

Bernie has a financial interest to see close racing and Championships that come down to the wire. In the last few years the title chase has come down to the final GP (I think Alonso had to score one point to gain the championship in Interlagos'06, but I could be wrong). Bernie loves this, it lines his pockets.

I think he wants to have an ace in the hole, in this case having parts ruled illegal to restores some type of competitive balance. The result is a longer title chase. Now there would have to be some dubious plot between Bernie and Max to orchastrate such a plan, however I think its possible. Think back to '06, why was Renault able to openly run their mass damper system only to have it deemed illegal after half of the GPs had been run? It just doesn't make sence.

Now I am not saying that this is something that regularly happens, or that F1 is fixed. I just think that some of the ambiguity and inconsistancies in how parts are deemed legal, and illegal can be used to benifit certain interests. And when those interested parties see an opertunity as a result of vauge rules they can use their weight to "make things happen" at just the precise moment.


Interesting post, but it does not stand up to scrutiny. If Bernie wanted to manipulate things to ensure a tight championship he would not have changed anything -- last year, under the old rules was as tight as you can get!
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill
donskar
 
Joined: 3 Feb 2007
Location: Cardboard box, end of Boulevard of Broken Dreams

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:35 pm

Yes, in a perfect world, we would not have ambiguity and protests. But what is the alternative? I can only see rules so clear and precise that we have a spec series -- earlier posts have already suggested a standard diffuser. Do we really want that.

It's been a LONG time since my mech engin courses, but I don't think it is possible to write rules that are totally without any ambiguity whatever. Would we need to have "rules" in the form of blurprints and 3D drawings?

I hope we all agree that we do NOT want F1 to be a spec series. (Yes, islamatron will disagree, sorry).
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill
donskar
 
Joined: 3 Feb 2007
Location: Cardboard box, end of Boulevard of Broken Dreams

Post Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:52 pm

Sorry, I've not been following these post, but even a quick read of the diffuser rules showed a lorry could be driven through them. Toyota and Williams drove a land rover through. It seems Brawn drove everything in the factory.

Thanks goodness politics didn't win this round! and it is good that these teams will get to use their efforts.

Sam Michael got it right when he suggested they where surprised no one else had done it. Of course they were.
feni_remmen
 
Joined: 26 Mar 2009

PreviousNext

Return to Aerodynamics, chassis and tyres

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 7 guests