F1 Budgets 2011: Who does more for less?

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Post Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:37 am

On several occasions, the argument of "doing more for less" has showed up in this forum when comparing performances from different teams. In order to have a metric to do those comparisons, maybe we could try to compile a list of the 2011 team budgets. Kind of like the wheelbase comparison thread, but financial.

Here is the info I have gathered for now:

From most of what I've been able to dig up from different sources, Ferrari has the biggest 2001 budget (199M Euros), with McLaren and Red Bull not far behind. Red Bull has actually increased its budget this season, the only top team to do so. Which is why many think they do not really abide to the RRA.

Mercedes' budget in 2010 was 80M Euros. 30M from Petronas, and 50M from FOM for having won the 2009 championship. Nothing from Mercedes, except from buying the team. And Mercedes have publicly said they would not give any money to the team and that the full funding had to come from sponsorships and FOM image rights, that's how they got the Daimler shareholders to accept the purchase of the F1 team.

So the 2010 Mercedes budget was less than half that of Ferrari's 2011 budget. And Mercedes' 2011 budget is even less than that. They announced a 10% cut for 2011, so it would be 72 million, a bit over a third of Ferrari's purse.

As far as Red Bull goes, their 2010 budget was rumored to be around 180M, and it was announced by the team that it increased this year, probably thanks to the FOM image rights from last year's championship win. McLaren are also rumored to be in the same ballpark, but again I couldn't find a precise figure.

HRT is the smallest financially with 34M for 2011. Sauber are rumored to be around 48-52M.

It can also be useful to take infrastructure into account when trying to assess efficiency.


In the end, the deal is the following, from what little info I could gather:


Ferrari: huge infrastructure, 199M Euros for 2011.
McLaren: slightly less big but still huge infrastructure, 180-200M
Red Bull: smaller but very up to date infrastructure, 180-200M
Renault: Smaller infrastructure, 86M
Mercedes: big but old infrastructure, smaller workforce than the other three, 72M
Williams: Consequent and modern infrastructure, but unreliable wind tunnel. No precise money figure found. Est. 60-80M.
Force India: Small and modern infrastructure, no precise money figure found. Est. 60-80M.
Sauber: very modern infrastructure, around 48-52M
Lotus: basic infrastructure, no precise budget figure. Est. 40-60M.
Virgin: little to no infrastructure, around 45M
HRT: Little to no infrastructure, 34M

So guys, post here your opinion as to who is the most efficient, who is throwing away money for nothing this season, and if you have any extra info on the budgets please update the list!
bot6
 
Joined: 2 Mar 2011

Post Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:24 pm

Money is not really the main source to success.
The right people is worth way more then whatever teams are spending.

Toyota had for several years the biggest budget but not once got a win.
Compared to BMW who had less but still did good.
The truth will come out...
HampusA
 
Joined: 16 Feb 2011

Post Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:22 am

That's the whole idea of this thread, to find out who uses their money most efficiently, hence who has the best people and the most efficient structure.
bot6
 
Joined: 2 Mar 2011

Post Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:27 am

bot6 wrote:That's the whole idea of this thread, to find out who uses their money most efficiently, hence who has the best people and the most efficient structure.


Red bull ? :)
eyes
"Too often we excuse those who are willing to build their own lives from the shattered dreams of other human beings." -Robert F. Kennedy
Shrieker
 
Joined: 1 Mar 2010
Location: Istanbul, TR

Post Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:05 am

it´s very hard to be fair on this.
Sauber for once has the perfect facility -everything new and top notch ,worksteam standards all in one site but has lost a lot of workforce due to the loss of works support.
On the other side Virgin has just lost all engineering background has no facility to develop or build anything .
How can we compare?
marcush.
 
Joined: 9 Mar 2004

Post Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:31 am

bot6 wrote:That's the whole idea of this thread, to find out who uses their money most efficiently, hence who has the best people and the most efficient structure.


Yea so far i'm with you but how do you plan to compare teams?

like red bull who is winning everything compared to renault which has two podiums.
that isnt counting all the things that happen which isn't controllable.
The truth will come out...
HampusA
 
Joined: 16 Feb 2011

Post Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:14 am

I think teams like Mercedes and to an extend Ferrari and Renault have a huge potential wich is not accounted for in money spent or budgeds..with all the facilities and information that is available to them - if they got the right connections internally and assuming they know what is there and they know what they need.
In terms of Kers that MUST be a huge advantage to be able to draw on basic research done in the main house for example.Or in terms of materials ,material pairings etc..things completely out of reach for say Toro Rosso or Force India.
For these teams strategic alliances are the ways to go: HRT with Tata .Team Lotus with GE or RedBull racing with Infinity should enable those teams to have access to basic research without actually spending money or binding recources on it.
marcush.
 
Joined: 9 Mar 2004

Post Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:29 pm

Heres the budget figures i have for 2011:

1] Ferrari: €440m (Same budget since 2008, 2012 will see it go down to €300m)
2] McLaren: €320m (Down €5m on 2010, 2012 will see it go down to €285m)
3] Red Bull: €285m (up €40m on 2010, will stay same for 2012)
4] Mercedes: €225m (up €40m on 2010, will stay same for 2012)
5] Renault: €185m (down €40m on 2010, uncertain for 2012)
6] Williams: €140m (down €40m on 2010, will stay same for 2012)
7] Force India: €135m (up €10m on 2010, will drop to €130m for 2012)
8] Sauber: €125m (up from €75m in 2010, will stay same in 2012)
=] Toro Rosso: €125m (up €15m from 2010, will increase to €140m in 2012)
10] Team Lotus: €120m (€20m up on 2010, however 2012 will see this riase to a minimum of €150m)
11] Virgin: €66m (up from €45m in 2010, this is expected to rise to €85m for 2012)
12] Hispania: €55m (up from a €38.6m budget, expected to rise to a budget of arround €65m to €70m in 2012)
ESPImperium
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2008
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:37 pm

ESPImperium wrote:Heres the budget figures i have for 2011:

1] Ferrari: €440m (Same budget since 2008, 2012 will see it go down to €300m)
2] McLaren: €320m (Down €5m on 2010, 2012 will see it go down to €285m)
3] Red Bull: €285m (up €40m on 2010, will stay same for 2012)
4] Mercedes: €225m (up €40m on 2010, will stay same for 2012)
5] Renault: €185m (down €40m on 2010, uncertain for 2012)
6] Williams: €140m (down €40m on 2010, will stay same for 2012)
7] Force India: €135m (up €10m on 2010, will drop to €130m for 2012)
8] Sauber: €125m (up from €75m in 2010, will stay same in 2012)
=] Toro Rosso: €125m (up €15m from 2010, will increase to €140m in 2012)
10] Team Lotus: €120m (€20m up on 2010, however 2012 will see this riase to a minimum of €150m)
11] Virgin: €66m (up from €45m in 2010, this is expected to rise to €85m for 2012)
12] Hispania: €55m (up from a €38.6m budget, expected to rise to a budget of arround €65m to €70m in 2012)

I think these budget figures are MUCH more accurate than the figures given earlier.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher
Pierce89
 
Joined: 21 Oct 2009

Post Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:20 pm

Both budget lists above tell the same story: generally, the more you spend, the more successful you are (duh!). There is almost a one-to-one correspondence between budget size and success. As long as the various teams are reasonably competent, money will win. And let's remember: the rich teams got rich by being successful and creative. Poverty does not equal clever or smart.
Last edited by donskar on Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill
donskar
 
Joined: 3 Feb 2007
Location: Cardboard box, end of Boulevard of Broken Dreams

Post Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:54 pm

If you want to talk team personell, heres roughly what ech team carries. Given a decently compeditive team should carry arround 225 to 250;

1] Ferrari: 900-950 staff (same since 2007/2008, reducing to 450-500 from 2012 onward)
2] McLaren: 750-785 staff (same since 2007/2008, reducing to 450 from 2012)
3] Red Bull: 450-485 (Same since 2008, but will remain roughly the same for 2012)
4] Renault: 400-420 (down from 550 in 2008/2009, will remain unchanged in 2012)
5] Williams: 380-410 (remains unchanged since arround 2008, however this could drop to arround 350 in 2012)
6] Mercedes: 350-380 (Honda was 750 in 2008, Brawn was 450 in 2009, last year they futher reduced capasity for streamlining operation, now putting a little fat back on, so id estimate 380-400 in 2012)
7] Sauber; 240-270 (BMW Ssauber in 2008/2009 was up at 650, last year they reduced to 225, id recon now they would be looking at 250 as the optimum level)
8] Toro Rosso: 225-235 (increase from the highs of 2008, whitch they had 165 employees, however they are recruting for 2012 to go to 250 employees with arround 45-75 based at Red Bull Technology in Milton Keynes, the rest are at Faenza)
9] Force India: 175-190 (have lost arround 40-50 people to team Team Lotus in the past 18 months)
10] Team Lotus: 185 (Have said they will have 225-240 in 2012 for optimal levels)
11] Hispania: 135 (arround 60-70 are Hispania employees directly, the rest are consultancy or rented from Kolles or Toyota Motorsport GmbH or other consultancy firms or freelance. Recruting at present, id recon that theyd want arround 150-185 for optimal levels)
12] Virgin: 85-120 (Wirth said there was 120 employees in total, with Wirth Research employing roughly 45 guys and Manor Motorsport employing 55 guys, the rest are all consultants or embedded engineers for suppliers. Id recon its now arround 100 with only about 15 Wirth Research guys in the team from now onward, recruting at present, looking for arround 150-185 optimum)
13] Toyota: 85-115 (yes they have left F1, but still have people in Cologne working on F1 projects in terms of the TF109-01 Pirelli car that is being used for tyre testing and for other teams for consultancy work. Back in 2009 they had arround 350-400 working in F1, most of whitch are at Team Lotus/Williams/Ferrari/Hispania now)

The McLaren and Ferrari guys that wont be in F1 next year are being kept on in the companies, Ferrari for their "unbranded" project that is rumored to be their entry into ALMS. The McLaren guys are being re-posisioned in the company for their GT3 programme, and for their MP4/xx Supercar project.

I have not included engine teams in figures, however Ferrari has their engine department included in the total. Renault havnt got their engine department in their figures and Mercedes as their engine departments are seperate from their team facility, so engine figures;

1] Mercedes: 185-225 (Budget €120m)
2] Renault: 165-180 (Budget €110m)
3] Ferrari: 150-165 (Budget €108m, however this is part of the overall Ferrari budget)
4] Cosworth: 140-155 (Budget €70m)
5] Toyota: 35-40 (Budget €22m) [their budget is made up by arround 70%-80% consultancy work and rental by Pirelli]
ESPImperium
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2008
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:10 pm

ESPImperium wrote:Ferrari for their "unbranded" project that is rumored to be their entry into ALMS.


ALMS as in LMP1? :)
Any links i could read up on regarding this? I´ve been waiting a long time to see a red beauty from Ferrari arrive that´s not an open wheeler.
The truth will come out...
HampusA
 
Joined: 16 Feb 2011

Post Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:30 pm

Pretty much. Ever since Luca di Montezemolo started the LM24h in 2009 or 2010 he was taken by it. Very simmilar Dr Wolfgang Ulrich at Audi.

At the same time Ferrari had a priority in F1, but knew that they would have to reduce in the near future, and the surplus budget and staff would have to go somewhere, and the rumor for about the past 12 months now, has been that Ferrari would join Audi, Peugoet and Aston Martin in LMP1 and have a increased presense in the GT classes.

Id expect a Ferrari LMP1 for 2013 or 2014, arround the time that Japan is strongly rumored to return to LMP1 with Honda, Mazda and Toyota all providing 2 or 3 car teams.

It could wipe out LMP2 if all theese teams come with 3 car teams, the 8 outfits (Audi, Puegoet, Aston, Ferrari, Toyota, Honda and Mazda) would provide 24 of the 35 LMP1 entries alone.

I have also heard rumors recently that America is wanting to race LMP1 again with a posible GM entry with Chevrolet as well.

With the new Endurance World Championship, i can only see LMP racing start to take away more money and more resource from F1 in the future, as LMP racing is starting to be more of a ultimate in motorsport terms than F1, however F1 will be the pinacle of F1.

Id also say give it within a decade and McLaren will be in LMP as well.
ESPImperium
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2008
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:04 pm

Hi,
ESPImperium, I am interested in the budget and staff figures you provided the forum with. However I cannot use them in my work without verifying their accuracy. Would it be possible to get the sources where you found the information please? I would have preferred sending you a PM but I am not allowed until I have posted 5 times on the forum, so now I am down to 4 :)
Many thanks in advance,
Cheers
Astrid
AstridT
 
Joined: 24 Jun 2012

Post Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:59 pm

Hi ESPImperium,

Just discovered your post on F1 teams budgets. Are you able to share your sources?
Houlio
 
Joined: 4 Sep 2012

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