What is keeping rotary valve engines from F1?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
wiley
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What is keeping rotary valve engines from F1?

Post by wiley » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:21 am

They seem like a logical replacement for cams and poppet valves.
The potiential for power would be great if (big if) the teams could get them to work.

I read an article of the possibility in Racecar Engineering about a year ago.
Are they banned? Regardless if they are, I want to know if they would work

Saribro
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Post by Saribro » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:47 am

The current engine rules are pretty narrow. Currently you need a 2.4 liter 8 cylinder engine with a 90° V-angle, pretty narrow range for bore and cilinderspacing, materials/alloys are limited, center of gravity is even defined.

Read all about it here:
http://www.formula1.com/insight/rulesan ... 4/485.html

It leaves painfully little room for creativity.

zac510
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Post by zac510 » Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:13 am

The regulations require the valves to be shaped as they are now.

I wouldn't call the rotary valve a 'logical' replacement. There are still issues with sealing and with the shape of the combustion chamber. Also the timing and duration of the opening is still locked.

Solenoid actuated valves are the real replacement.

DaveKillens
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Post by DaveKillens » Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:36 pm

A rotary valve has the advantage that it does not add reciprocating (vibration and added stress) mass to an engine. But it usually has a lot of mass, and thus accelerating or decelerating the revolutions may be hindered. It also doesn't seal as well as a poppet valve, important in a high compression engine. As well, the opening and closing is relatively slow compared to how quickly you can open a poppet. This slow opening and closing makes it hard to make emission standards.

Ciro Pabón
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Post by Ciro Pabón » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:05 pm

zac510 wrote:... the timing and duration of the opening is still locked.
There is a Lotus design, circa 1990, for a variable opening and, I think, variable timing rotary valve, that uses a stator outside the valve carcasse and rotates the valve, shaped like a cylinder and acting as a rotor. The concept seems easy to implement, but the valve is subjected to the full engine compression, so I guess the sealing problem persisted.

Image

More serious than the sealing disadvantage mentioned, compared to poppet valves that uses autoclave effect, the Aspen and Cross rotary valves (vertical and horizontal, respectively) suffered from overheating, lubrication spilling into the combustion chamber and spark plug fouling.

The only constructor of rotary valve engines I could find was Coates. They claim they could double engine output by increasing compression ratios, because their rotary valves does not create hot points in the combustion chamber... I think it has to be taken with a grain of salt, as the one problem with other rotary valves has been that they interfere with the spark plug optimal position. Contrary to Aspen and Cross experiences, they claim they do not need coolant or lubrication on the engine head (?).
Ciro

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Post by jgredline » Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:32 am

fOR us old guys that got to see rotaries run in the IMSA camel gt series they were fun and amazing to see. What was more amazing were the blow ups.
When those Mazdas expolded they exploded. :D
To finish first, first you must finish.

Ciro Pabón
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Post by Ciro Pabón » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:17 am

You can be sure jgredline is aware that rotary engines are different from rotary valve engines, but it is good to remember that to anyone that may be reading this.
Ciro

jgredline
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Post by jgredline » Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:39 pm

Ciro
Yes I am aware of them. this post reminded me of the 6 hours of riverside and the IMSA CAMEL GT SERIES and watching the amazing late Al Holbert dominate in that porsche. Seeing all those prototypes race with old technology, when drivers had to drive, and engine builders had to pray before everyrace that the engines would not blow up, the smell of leaded race fuel in the air and seeing 60 cars on the track at the same time .. AWWW what ood memories. It was only like 25 years ago, yet seems longer.
Ciro. I have always enjoyed reading your post. Even though I don't post much I look forward to reading yurs.
Godspeed
To finish first, first you must finish.

DaveKillens
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Post by DaveKillens » Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:01 am

Up here in Ontario, Canada, in the early 70's some guy had fitted a Mazda rotary engine in the back of a Cooper formula chassis, and did pretty decent with it. This was before the RX-7 had even been born. Man, you should have seen how long the flames were coming out the megaphone when he backed off the gas.......... :lol:

joseff
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Post by joseff » Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:20 pm

Slightly off the topic, but Ducati seems to manage making desmo work at 17k rpm.

gtpumps
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Post by gtpumps » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:32 pm

With the new V8 regulations the FIA effectively banned any new engine technology.

We got VERY close until the FIA shafted us, this project had been a closely guarded secret until now read about it hereAutoTechnology article

It's a sad day F1 was once the pinnacle of engine development and innovation :(

Tom
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Post by Tom » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:52 pm

Welcome to THE forum gtpumps,

you seem to know alot about this system, when you say 'we' got close do you mean you were part of a project developing this?
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

gtpumps
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Post by gtpumps » Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:25 am

Tom wrote:Welcome to THE forum gtpumps,

you seem to know alot about this system, when you say 'we' got close do you mean you were part of a project developing this?
Yes.

joseff
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Post by joseff » Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:55 am

I feel for you gtpumps.

Are we looking at a possible future implementation in Mercedes road cars?

gtpumps
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Post by gtpumps » Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:03 am

joseff wrote:I feel for you gtpumps.

Are we looking at a possible future implementation in Mercedes road cars?
You would have to ask them about that.



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