Carbon composite monocoque chassis

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Post Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:26 am

I'm interested in the design of the carbon composite monocoque chassis so much.
If there is an engineer who is involved in that kind of development project or has some information, please share your knowledge with us.

What company is designing and manufacturing the monocoque chassis for the f1 team?
(LOLA, Dallara, ATR, ACG, Gurit... any other else?)

What is the difference between the monocoque chassis of the f1 car and that of supercars such as CarreraGT, Enzo, Veyron, Zonda?

Which kind of software do they mostly use to develop a new composite chassis?
(PATRAN laminate modeler, FiberSim... something like that?)

Is there any regulation for the material used?
(regulation for fiber strength, resin property, honeycomb property?)

How long can it be used? Do they consider the fatigue life ususally?
jagato00
 
Joined: 13 Nov 2008

Post Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:41 am

jagato00 wrote:I'm interested in the design of the carbon composite monocoque chassis so much.
If there is an engineer who is involved in that kind of development project or has some information, please share your knowledge with us.

I'm not but i may be able to help.

jagato00 wrote:What company is designing and manufacturing the monocoque chassis for the f1 team?
(LOLA, Dallara, ATR, ACG, Gurit... any other else?)?

There is no sole monocoque designer (atleast at t he moment and hopefully never). Every team needs to design their own chassis.


jagato00 wrote:What is the difference between the monocoque chassis of the f1 car and that of supercars such as CarreraGT, Enzo, Veyron, Zonda??

F1 car's tend to use aluminum honeycomb as reinforcement, and i think that the super cars you listed only used a carbon composite tub. However, There is a better material in that CFRP Honeycomb, is stronger and, I think better crash structure properties.

jagato00 wrote:Which kind of software do they mostly use to develop a new composite chassis?
(PATRAN laminate modeler, FiberSim... something like that?)?

Not sure Catia comes to mind, but no doubt some kind of FEA program

jagato00 wrote:Is there any regulation for the material used?
(regulation for fiber strength, resin property, honeycomb property?)?

Well, the chassis have to undergo a structural test for the safety of the driver. Regardless of the process used. I believe they can use any kind of material for their chassis, as long as it meets the FIA's standards. BUT Carbon is pretty much the best bang for your buck in F1.

jagato00 wrote:How long can it be used? Do they consider the fatigue life ususally?

Yes, New chassis every year, as well as new suspension components.

Hope that helps. Im only a student still but your questions were basic enough to give you the right idea. I'm sure someone more knowledgable will chime in soon.
fastback33
 
Joined: 29 Aug 2007

Post Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:14 am

Well, with the cost cutting ventures, do not be surprised if there IS a standardized monocoque for 2010. Realistically, if it was built that bodyparts could completely cover it, there would still be room for team ingenuity, but drive down the cost of 10 teams independantly coming to the same conclusion...
Conceptual
 
Joined: 15 Nov 2007

Post Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:56 am

No big surprise that 90% of such teams are located in England. McLaren, Williams, Honda F1, RedBull, Renault, Force India, Lola, Prodrive, Reynard, probably another 5 or 6 little teams that build LM Sports Car Prototypes for Audi, Peugot, Porsche and Formula cars, Toyota in Germany, BMW Sauber in Switzerland, Ferrari, Dallara in Italy, 2 in Japan. I doubt that there is a single such company in the US. You get similar skills in the defense industry for helicopters, missiles, drones, aircraft and space vehicles in the US, France, Germany, Russia, Japan and increasingly in China I guess.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Post Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:25 am

Obviously, the teams design their own chassis, which they have to by the Concorde agreement as this is what is largely is recognized as the "car, while everything else can be supplied, such as engine, gearbox and such.

As for the manufacturing I am not so sure, but certainly the big teams hire their own laminators and other skilled people needed for the task, sometime you can see ads in the classifieds. I have seen a picture somewhere of the Renault autoclave in Enstone, which was easily big enough for an F1 tub.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"
xpensive
 
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Post Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:05 am

Where do the composite engineers start their career to get in the formula 1 team?

As you know, the design of the composite monocoque chassis is very specialized area. I think that most university or graduate students couldn't experience it.

Where is the first step for it?

Working in an aeronautic company and getting some trainning?
jagato00
 
Joined: 13 Nov 2008

Post Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:33 pm

I belive that many of today's F1 engineers have some sort of aerospace related university degree.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"
xpensive
 
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Post Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:43 pm

I would think a graduate degree in Aerospace, Mechanical, or Materials Science engineering.. with an emphasis on composite mechanics and computational mechanics/analysis would be a damn good start. Hands-on experience is also good.
Grip is a four letter word.

2 is the new #1.
Jersey Tom
 
Joined: 29 May 2006
Location: Huntersville, NC

Post Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:13 am

I already got an Ph. D. on the mechanical engineering, especially on the design of the composite materials.
However, there was a limitation of composite experience in the university.
Even graduate students never get an experience ot design a complex monocoque chassis. They never design and stack more than 2,000 plies.
Also, they hardly get an experience to try design software such as FIBERSIM.
jagato00
 
Joined: 13 Nov 2008

Post Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:01 am

Couldn't you have done something like that as your thesis?
Grip is a four letter word.

2 is the new #1.
Jersey Tom
 
Joined: 29 May 2006
Location: Huntersville, NC

Post Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:11 am

it scares me you can get a Phd in composites and not have an idea how to build a car chassis its a glorified box. In the end composite structures are composite structures. They are all build pretty much the same way
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me."
flynfrog
 
Joined: 23 Mar 2006

Post Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:23 am

flynfrog wrote:it scares me you can get a Phd in composites and not have an idea how to build a car chassis its a glorified box. In the end composite structures are composite structures. They are all build pretty much the same way


Well... The research area of my lab. was the application of composite materials as a machine component... composite boring bar, aluminum hybrid drive shaft, robot hand and so on... also we handled the adhesion problem.
Especially my thesis was for the carbon-composite spherical bearing. If you think the composite chassis is the end of the composite technology, my area may be nothing. However, many people focused on other applications of composite materials and they know what you don't know... Even a professor can not design the composite monocoque chassis in detail with just theory and without experiences.
jagato00
 
Joined: 13 Nov 2008

Post Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:20 am

Academia is just different to real world practical application IMHO. Also, the research budgets are in completely different world, the only thing that you can do in a university lab (at least in mine) are in general small scale prototypes, but i know zero about composites, only wanted to express my opinion...
Even if you have the money and everything, PhD are very concentrated in the area of research. I think that the concept and theory are different things to practical application, and i think that jagato00 wants someone with experience to guide him to learn about this topic.

just my 2 cents,
Regards
"We will have to wait and see".
pipex
 
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Location: The net

Post Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:15 pm

This is what you do not want from a monocoque

Image

the 1999 F399 Ferrari that broke Schumachers legs also failed in a crash at historic Laguna Seca meeting in 2004
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
WhiteBlue
 
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Post Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:31 pm

Wonderful picture that WB, just how I like to behold a Ferrari!
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"
xpensive
 
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

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