Are we seeing a Vettel era?

[raymondu999]

It's hard in a way isn't it. In Formula One; save for a few aberrations; such as pay drivers; the amount of talent you need is already immense; and you won't really get into F1 unless you're bleeding quick. There's very little amongst the drivers that probably what defines great (rather than good/excellent) is probably in the other factors other than speed.

[PlatinumZealot]

I agree somewhat. Speed used to be everything - almost. Speed of thinking is what leads to other skills such as overtaking, braking, aggression.

With these new pirelli tyres and regulations you are punished for being fast and your cars is doubly punished for not having the best aerodynamics.

[Gerhard Berger]

Yes it's that ability to be a consistently great driver that often makes the best what they are. Webber for instance can be hugely quick at times (sometimes only a few laps at occasional races) but usually he is slower than vettel.

I agree with this. The likes of Trulli, Fisichella, Frentzen etc. all showed great speed on occassion, but could never really consistantly put it together across a number of seasons. I think Webber is similar.

You look at the likes of Alonso, Schumacher (at his peak), Hamilton (apart from this year) etc. it is quite rare to see them have a poor race.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@ N smikle

So what's changed in 25 years?

Rule changes are part of the game, every set of rules is the same for every driver. And as Hamilton landed at McLaren straight away, he benefited from having a top team interpreting those rules. You cannot always have it your way, as I'm sure Hamilton learnt in 2011.
His reaction in 2012 will be the same IMO as he is a pure blood racer, I love that about him. But, maybe he should take a leaf out of his idols book.....and think about the long game.

As for speed, Vettel seemed to have no trouble. If it was solely the car, webber would've done it too. And when I look at the standings I see a Mclaren ahead of Webbers RB7.
I also see an F150th ahead of Hamiltons McLaren.

[Pierce89]

I agree somewhat. Speed used to be everything - almost. Speed of thinking is what leads to other skills such as overtaking, braking, aggression.

With these new pirelli tyres and regulations you are punished for being fast and your cars is doubly punished for not having the best aerodynamics.

drivers are not punished for being fast. If the drivers weren't pushing the tires wouldn't get destroyed so quickly. The Pirelli's just force a diver into getting the same speed but with smaller gentler control inputs so as not to load the tires up to much, but it's not like the drivers aren't on their limit. When grip goes away they still drive hard they just have to have more skill. I felt like the Bridgestone's allowed drivers to abuse them to the point where it virtually erased the need for that skillset bringing the less talented drivers closer to the more talented drivers.

I definitely feel like the Pirellis help to separate the best drivers from the rest, but the problem with them is they seem to hurt better cars. I feel like with the invincible Bridgestones the field would never have gotten close to the RB7 since it could use it's grip advantage with impunity.

But I don't think Vettel will dominate 2012, still probably win but the other cars will be closer to the RB8

[Pierce89]

@ N smikle

So what's changed in 25 years?

Rule changes are part of the game, every set of rules is the same for every driver. And as Hamilton landed at McLaren straight away, he benefited from having a top team interpreting those rules. You cannot always have it your way, as I'm sure Hamilton learnt in 2011.
His reaction in 2012 will be the same IMO as he is a pure blood racer, I love that about him. But, maybe he should take a leaf out of his idols book.....and think about the long game.

As for speed, Vettel seemed to have no trouble. If it was solely the car, webber would've done it too. And when I look at the standings I see a Mclaren ahead of Webbers RB7.
I also see an F150th ahead of Hamiltons McLaren.

I agree Hamilton and Webber both greatly disappointed me this season. Realistically, Webber should've gotten second and Hamilton third, that neither one of them got those places speaks to what a poor job they each did this season

[raymondu999]

when I look at the standings I see a Mclaren ahead of Webbers RB7.

The slower McLaren driver nonetheless. (Before you berate me; hear me out - Jenson has driven beautifully in 2011; but he is still clearly the slower driver)

I definitely feel like the Pirellis help to separate the best drivers from the rest, but the problem with them is they seem to hurt better cars. I feel like with the invincible Bridgestones the field would never have gotten close to the RB7 since it could use it's grip advantage with impunity.

Agreed. I think the thing is; the faster car seems to just mean higher deg values for the Pirellis - in a way; a rather "self-leveling" effect is achieved as the fastest qualifying car probably will hurt tires more; and vice versa. Though that was certainly more true in the higher degradation circuits with long, fast corners; a la Suzuka and Silverstone. Didn't seem to happen much in traction-heavy circuits like Monaco/Singapore etc.

[bhall]

(OK. ; is not the same as , Just throwin' that out there.)

I think the Pirelli tires neither hurt nor help any team/driver, because they are the same for everyone. Everyone has equal opportunity to get the best from the tires. And the teams/drivers who best come to terms with the tires' characteristics end up being more successful than those who don't. That's been the case forever in racing. If anything, the Pirellis simply expose those drivers/teams who are deficient in that ability, which is something the Bridgestones seemed to mask.

[beelsebob]

when I look at the standings I see a Mclaren ahead of Webbers RB7.

The slower McLaren driver nonetheless. (Before you berate me; hear me out - Jenson has driven beautifully in 2011; but he is still clearly the slower driver)

I definitely feel like the Pirellis help to separate the best drivers from the rest, but the problem with them is they seem to hurt better cars. I feel like with the invincible Bridgestones the field would never have gotten close to the RB7 since it could use it's grip advantage with impunity.

Agreed. I think the thing is; the faster car seems to just mean higher deg values for the Pirellis - in a way; a rather "self-leveling" effect is achieved as the fastest qualifying car probably will hurt tires more; and vice versa. Though that was certainly more true in the higher degradation circuits with long, fast corners; a la Suzuka and Silverstone. Didn't seem to happen much in traction-heavy circuits like Monaco/Singapore etc.

I'm not convinced that they separate the "better" drivers – they separate the smoother drivers. The Hamilton/Button fight seems to highlight this well – Hamilton is arguably the faster driver, but his particular style tends to shred the pirellis. Button's, and Vettel's styles happen to keep them in good condition for a long time.

In the same way, one could argue hat the Bridgestones separated the "better" drivers, because they could push more to the limits. But again, this would be a fallacy, it would simply separate the drivers with the more aggressive styles, rather than the pirellis separating the ones with the smoother styles.

[beelsebob]

(OK. ; is not the same as , Just throwin' that out there.)

I think the Pirelli tires neither hurt nor help any team/driver, because they are the same for everyone. Everyone has equal opportunity to get the best from the tires. And the teams/drivers who best come to terms with the tires' characteristics end up being more successful than those who don't.

Agreed, but... bear in mind that some drivers have more "coming to terms" to do than others. Button's style "just works" on pirellis, Schumacher's doesn't.

Similarly, Hamilton's style "just works" on bridgestones, Vettel's doesn't so much.

[bhall]

I edited my previous statement to make it more reflective of the point I was trying to get across.

It should also be noted that some drivers are still coming to terms with the narrower front tires. Massa, for instance, is not the same driver he was before that change.

[raymondu999]

In the same way, one could argue hat the Bridgestones separated the "better" drivers, because they could push more to the limits.

I'd have agreed with you if you had said "faster" drivers.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Vettel not go fast enough in 2011?

[raymondu999]

I never said that JET. I was replying beelsebob's comments regarding Bridgestones. I didn't say anything about the 2011 tyres

[beelsebob]

In the same way, one could argue hat the Bridgestones separated the "better" drivers, because they could push more to the limits.

I'd have agreed with you if you had said "faster" drivers.

The use of quotes was meant to be indicative of there being many different ways to define "better", hence the problem with saying one set of tyres favours the "better" drivers.