Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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Are we?

Yes
55
39%
No
85
61%
 
Total votes: 140

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
Location: SU 419113

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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Faster is not always better.

Hamilton is faster than Button we are all agreed, although button has been faster than Hamilton nigh on 33% of the time in 2011.
Yet we know well the end result.

I would also say that qualifying is nowhere near as important as it used to be. Driver preserving tyres or in some instance not even bothering to go out and set a time indicates that.
So if you want to be a 1 lap hero, you end up losing position in race.

It's this that makes Vettels 2011 season remarkable IMO. 15 poles and he wraps up the championship with GPs to spare.
Yes the RB7 was fantastic, but it wasn't all that great in webbos hands(sorry keep repeating this).
And when you consider how Vettel managed his speed at various stages of each gp, you realise that there was alot of thinking going on in that helmet.
I hazard a guess that if it came down to outright speed, Vettel could also bang it out hell for leather lap after lap just as good as Alonso and Hamilton.
But you have to ask the question, if it harms your cause.... Why attempt to do it 100% lap after lap?
More could have been done.
David Purley

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raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Faster is not always better.
I didn't say it was. My comment was purely restricted to the realm of speed; and Bridgestones. It completely ignored any other facet of driving and/or tyres. [...]
Last edited by Steven on 23 Jan 2012, 23:18, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed personal comment
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jamsbong
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Joined: 13 May 2007, 05:00

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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Regarding changing from Bridgestone to Pirellis, I think this really tests the driver's ability to adapt to a tyre that 'feels' different. I suppose you can argue that highlights a driver is "better" at adapting to new tyres.

I remember Bridgestone always understeers more when the tyres worns out. The Pirellis get more oversteery when worn out. I'm not sure if there is anything to do with winning since every driver is in the same situation, but just my observation.

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raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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[...] In the era of seemingly-immortal Bridgestone tyres; a driver didn't have to worry about anything other than going balls to the wall flat out. As such speed became a big differentiating factor amongst drivers; as they could just go hell for leather without worrying about managing the tyres.

There is nothing more; and nothing less; to the comment.
Last edited by Steven on 23 Jan 2012, 23:21, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Remove comment to deleted post
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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
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Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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Could you not also tell I was replying to beelsebob as well as yourself?
Perhaps it's not really the place to tell people what they should and shouldn't read into?

End of the day, there were posts explaining hamiltons lack of form on the tyres, when they are in fact the same for everyone.
Using tyres as a reason is thus invalid IMO unless Hamilton is recieving different pirellis from anyone else.
The speed argument I made the point of Vettel doing plenty well in that area sometimes on tyres that are purportedly shot.

We can all sit here and make excuses for drivers. But if they cannot perform as expected to the rules, then that's tough.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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I can't talk for beelsebob at this point - but I didn't say anything about Hamilton. THe only thing I have said is that he is faster than Button; in that I'm accepting "generally faster" as the generic use of faster; given the fact that there is probably no one who is able to be faster than someone else; 100% of the time.

Has Hamilton performed on the Pirellis? He has at times; but on most no. At the end of his day; whether or not the Pirellis intrinsically suit his driving style; it's his job to adapt to them.

Do the Pirellis suit Button better? Possibly. But then that's life. You have to take it on the chin and move on.
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Gerhard Berger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2010, 11:17

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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Hamilton's biggest problem was not being able to have a clean, incident free weekend too often.

He had problems with tyres in some races (who didn't?) but then on many others he had no problem with the tyres.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
Location: SU 419113

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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Gerhard Berger wrote:Hamilton's biggest problem was not being able to have a clean, incident free weekend too often.

He had problems with tyres in some races (who didn't?) but then on many others he had no problem with the tyres.

Yup, I go with that. I don't want to come down hard on Hamilton, because he is demonically good. Its just I get the unnerving feeling he thinks he is the best and this deserves a favour from everyone, be that drivers moving out his way etc etc.
I don't want to defend or attack either Hamilton or Massa, because I think both need to look back and realise the self defeatist actions they both were responsible for at various races.

If Hamilton can sort his head out, and use it to good effect, we will forget 2011 like it never happened and resume praising a great talent.
How Vettel copes with a charging Hamilton in 2012 will be interesting. I hope we get to see an even contest between the drivers, so that wheel to wheel racing can bring the acid test to the final question of Vettel.... Can he win when he isn't in front? Can he hunt a car down as we have seen Alonso, Hamilton, Schumacher and Hakkinen did before?

I just hope we see a titanic struggle, so that who ever wins.... We the fans win!
More could have been done.
David Purley

jdlive
-3
Joined: 23 Oct 2011, 12:16

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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raymondu999 wrote:I agree with your conclusion. But agai, like I said; in terms of speed and overtaking. Not in terms of mental strength; strategic thinking, etc. His troubles this season haven't really been an inability to overtake; or lack of speed - it's been more mental setbacks in his head.
Basically you're saying what I said before in this thread, Hamilton would do better in a series in which he has less buttons to use, less thoughts to generate and more equal cars. He's too dumb for F1.

But even apart from all of that, his speed is obviously top but even there I would easily put Vettel, Alonso and Schumacher ahead of him.
"There is a credit card with the Ferrari logo, issued by Santander, which gives the scuderia a % of purchases made with the card...

I would guess that such a serious amount of money would allow them to ignore the constant complains of a car that was nowhere near as bad as their #1 driver tried to sell throughout the season.

Heck, a car on which Massa finishes in the podium or has to lift so that his teammate finishes ahead (As we saw often in the final races of the year) is, by no means, a "bad" car."

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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Pierce89 wrote:
n smikle wrote:I agree somewhat. Speed used to be everything - almost. Speed of thinking is what leads to other skills such as overtaking, braking, aggression.

With these new pirelli tyres and regulations you are punished for being fast and your cars is doubly punished for not having the best aerodynamics.
drivers are not punished for being fast. If the drivers weren't pushing the tires wouldn't get destroyed so quickly. The Pirelli's just force a diver into getting the same speed but with smaller gentler control inputs so as not to load the tires up to much, but it's not like the drivers aren't on their limit. When grip goes away they still drive hard they just have to have more skill. I felt like the Bridgestone's allowed drivers to abuse them to the point where it virtually erased the need for that skillset bringing the less talented drivers closer to the more talented drivers.

I definitely feel like the Pirellis help to separate the best drivers from the rest, but the problem with them is they seem to hurt better cars. I feel like with the invincible Bridgestones the field would never have gotten close to the RB7 since it could use it's grip advantage with impunity.

But I don't think Vettel will dominate 2012, still probably win but the other cars will be closer to the RB8
I disagree.. Jenson and Hamilton said you have to drive slower to save tyres. Literally tempering your innate racing instinct. The tyres are a resource. Races are more marathon like, try to sprint all the way and you won't make it.

I don't know Hamilton got into this argument anyway, but Hamilton's problems wasn't the tyres. He did very well on tyre critical tracks. haha. His problem was the way he had to race to BEAT Vettel's redBull. You aint beating Vettel saving tyres and cruising to the end. You'll just be the first loser.
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bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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I think it's misleading to say that you have to drive slower to save the tires and then just leave it at that. The reality is that you have to drive intelligently* to save the tires so that your overall pace is as quick as circumstances will allow. And going all-or-nothing in an attempt to do more than the circumstances will allow is very, very rarely a winning strategy.

But it is a strategy I hope Hamilton doesn't abandon; I like him a lot better in 5th place.



* I'm not implying that Hamilton isn't intelligent.

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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Yeah; I don't think it's as simple as "drive slower and you'll save tyres." Driving slower probably would; but I think there are changes that could be made to driving style to help facilitate tyre management.

Hamilton is undoubtedly a very talented driver; but sadly I don't think he's found his feet in this (as you say; n_smikle) more marathon-like Formula One.

There were several race weekends when the McLaren was for whatever reason either plain rubbish; or rubbish on the tyres; such as Valencia or Turkey. I can think of only a few times (though that would be a few too many!) when Lewis has had tyre problems compared to his teammate. Sepang and Suzuka namely. Mind you there were several times when Lewis was for some reason the form man on tyres; such as Barcelona; keeping his tyres magnificently until the last few laps. Button was on a different strategy and we'd never know what would have happened had he done the same strategy as Lewis though. Ditto for the Nurburgring. All weekend Lewis was just about the only guy who could make the hard tyres work (though ironically this could be due to his more hard-charging style as everyone's problems was that they couldn't HEAT the tyres up)

At all other circuits Lewis hasn't had any problems with the tyres really.
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jamsbong
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Joined: 13 May 2007, 05:00

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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Just a thought about the occasional on-form Hamilton. Can it be that Vettel has always been able to critically analyse each race and work out what was good, bad, etcs and built on this knowledge more effectively. Hamilton has been on-form at times and he seems unbeatable, he and Mclaren did not took that knowledge to be used on the next race as well as Vettel/RB did.

I think driving to safe tyres does not mean driving slowly. I suspect preparing the car before the race is also key to making the tire last.

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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I think it's probably a lot more than just setup and driving slowly. Yes both those things help, but driving does help too - for example some were saying that the Pirellis aren't as tolerant of trail braking and powering out on an arc - ie you should trail brake a bit earlier; then carry a circular arc into a corner, and straightening out before you power out - or possibly straightening out before the apex if you'd rather do a late apex. I think the dynamics of how the driver manages when the tyre is loaded laterally; the lockups/wheelspins; and obviously how much he maximises exit traction are all very key things.
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Shrieker
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010, 23:41

Re: Are we seeing a Vettel era?

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First comments on 2012 tyres say the rears hold out longer, might be an indication that overall the Pirelli tyres will be closer to Bridgestones compared to 2011.
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