Are we seeing a Vettel era?

[CHT]

The STR3 was designed by Adrian Newey. The only difference between it and the Red Bull RB4, aside from engines, is that the Red Bull got updates first.

I thought the str3 is using rb3 design instead of rb4

[PlatinumZealot]

While many people talk of Monza 2008 as proof that Vettel can perform in a bad car - which I agree with - I think as JET says, the true test will be how will he perform in a bad car, AFTER he's had a championship-winning car.

I never head of a bad car getting pole and 4th place at Monza!

[raymondu999]

Well then how would you go about it? I mean; any car that wins nowadays is really probably the quickest on the day - the margins are to close between the drivers.

[bhall]

[...] any car that wins nowadays is really probably the quickest on the day [...]

You said it beautifully right there.

But we just went through all of this.

[raymondu999]

Well it's true - it's been a while since we really had a Toleman -84-Monaco type victory. Even then - how do we know that Toleman wasn't quickest on the day? I'm not saying it was; but how do we know that it wasn't actually the quickest in those conditions?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Well it's true - it's been a while since we really had a Toleman -84-Monaco type victory. Even then - how do we know that Toleman wasn't quickest on the day? I'm not saying it was; but how do we know that it wasn't actually the quickest in those conditions?

Because drivers were slowing down markedly due to conditions. Cars could have gone faster, but drivers required balls the size of melons allied to wizard like skills to manage that. Lets not forget, the car was a good 2 seconds off the pace compared to Prost.

And Senna was catching Prost at over 4 seconds a lap in clear air. Thats a swing of over 6 seconds.

This difference is not down to machine or set up, this was purely down to driver in my opinion.

[raymondu999]

I know what you mean. I'm not saying it was - but like a previous thread I had on this board - which has been dead for a while; how do we know? There's no way of knowing. Maybe in those conditions, in Monaco, the Toleman was actually 10 seconds a lap quicker than Prost's McLaren; and Senna was actually rubbish while Prost was getting the maximum out of his McLaren. I'm not saying that's the case; but I'm saying we don't know if it is/isn't.

[bhall]

Ironically, there's no formula for this kind of stuff. You just have to look at every situation and make the best judgment you can based on what you know at the time.

[raymondu999]

Yup. It's a rather massive chicken and egg in a way... and I hate those. For what it's worth; I still think the chicken came first

[PlatinumZealot]

I know what you mean. I'm not saying it was - but like a previous thread I had on this board - which has been dead for a while; how do we know? There's no way of knowing. Maybe in those conditions, in Monaco, the Toleman was actually 10 seconds a lap quicker than Prost's McLaren; and Senna was actually rubbish while Prost was getting the maximum out of his McLaren. I'm not saying that's the case; but I'm saying we don't know if it is/isn't.

There is also another aspect.. Someitmes the fastest car starts at the back because of unfortunate happenings and they just can't make it up to the front of the pack, so a slower car can win without challenge.

[raymondu999]

Ah - but if it's starting at the back; is it really the fastest car? The argument works both ways.

[Jeffsvilleusa]

That's another thing- Monza '08 was without a doubt a spectacular race and well-deserved victory for Vettel, but what would define him as a dominant driver would be to win from behind. That is one thing that really elevates the value of a driver. Kimi's Suzuka '05 race was legendary, Button's race last year in Canada, Schumacher's 'career-ending' race in Brazil, Alonso's race in Hungary '06, Hamilton's win in Monaco '08 after a puncture. These drives silence the driver's critics, but Vettel doesn't have any like it. Perhaps he will, but we need to see more heroics from him!

As far as finger-jousting go, I'm sorry, but the way Vettel takes the finger of success and twists it around like that is just kind of naughty!

[bhall]

It's a rather massive chicken and egg in a way [...]

It can be. I don't think that's the case here, though.

[irang]

That's another thing- Monza '08 was without a doubt a spectacular race and well-deserved victory for Vettel, but what would define him as a dominant driver would be to win from behind. That is one thing that really elevates the value of a driver. Kimi's Suzuka '05 race was legendary, Button's race last year in Canada, Schumacher's 'career-ending' race in Brazil, Alonso's race in Hungary '06, Hamilton's win in Monaco '08 after a puncture. These drives silence the driver's critics, but Vettel doesn't have any like it. Perhaps he will, but we need to see more heroics from him!

As far as finger-jousting go, I'm sorry, but the way Vettel takes the finger of success and twists it around like that is just kind of naughty!

I could be wrong though, I get the feeling that if Vettel had won the race in the same fashion of Button's, people would've never stopped talking about how he was helped by the SC periods and the double DRS zone, how he took out his main opponents and how so lucky he was with P1 handing over the win by making the crucial mistake at the end of the race. Therefore it wasn't special at all to their eyes and I doubt Vettel would get the amount of praise that Button received for the win. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it wasn't a brilliant race.

[RB7ate9]

In regards to titanic comebacks from the rear of the pack to make it to the podium, I'd like to point out Webber in China '11. Sure he was helped out massively by the DRS zone, but he was making up seconds upon seconds and probably would've had the measure of Vettel and Hamilton had it gone on for another few laps. Not a champion (yet) but still a good driver in a good car.

While it would be incredibly rewarding to see Vettel do the same, I agree that he has a "Prost" way about him where he knows where he needs to be to maximize his position and minimize risk, and that's Pole, so he destroys qualifying. I'd like a chance to talk with him after a race and just find out his general strategy based on his thoughts about the other cars/drivers/track conditions. And I mean truthfully, not something canned for the press.