Engine Unfreeze

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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diffuser
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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WilliamsF1 wrote:
SectorOne wrote: It´s not gonna change much whether they were allowed or not.
I think it´s better for them to have a frozen formula. Modify it year by year in a "cheap" controlled environment rather then going all out and being out-spent by the Mercedes powerhouse.
This year's engine disparity has been covered by the exciting teammate battle within the Merc Team. If Hamilton had dominated or if Rosberg was any less of a driver like one of Schumacher's other team mates F1 would have been in a serious crisis. Too much of a domination by a team is never great for a sport, Merc domination with CLK_GTR killed a sport Porsche 917 too killed a sport.

Covered is not word I'd choose.

It is the worst year since the Schumacher years.

F1 only pays prize money by constructors ....That is, by it's own admission, it's highest Prize. That title has not been in doubt since Australia(the whole season).

They keep talking about making F1 better...oh the PUs don't make enough noise, it's too complicated it's this it's that. They fail to see that F1 is a sport and a sport relies on Competition.

Since the only teams with a real chance at winning are the "works" teams, removing a chance to improve the engine robs them of the chance to catchup. All the other teams are just about regulated into the "also ran"category anyways.

ParkerArt
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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diffuser wrote:
WilliamsF1 wrote:
SectorOne wrote: It´s not gonna change much whether they were allowed or not.
I think it´s better for them to have a frozen formula. Modify it year by year in a "cheap" controlled environment rather then going all out and being out-spent by the Mercedes powerhouse.
This year's engine disparity has been covered by the exciting teammate battle within the Merc Team. If Hamilton had dominated or if Rosberg was any less of a driver like one of Schumacher's other team mates F1 would have been in a serious crisis. Too much of a domination by a team is never great for a sport, Merc domination with CLK_GTR killed a sport Porsche 917 too killed a sport.

Covered is not word I'd choose.

It is the worst year since the Schumacher years.

F1 only pays prize money by constructors ....That is, by it's own admission, it's highest Prize. That title has not been in doubt since Australia(the whole season).

They keep talking about making F1 better...oh the PUs don't make enough noise, it's too complicated it's this it's that. They fail to see that F1 is a sport and a sport relies on Competition.

Since the only teams with a real chance at winning are the "works" teams, removing a chance to improve the engine robs them of the chance to catchup. All the other teams are just about regulated into the "also ran"category anyways.

Yeah, 2011 and 2013 were such fun to watch seasons too...

What if I made a poll asking what is the favourite turbocharged F1 car and the MP4/4 has more than 30% of the vote? In race trim, the /4 was slower in a straight line and less powerful than the current Caterham but the McLaren was incredibly dominate and that season will always be remembered fondly.

Richard
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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GitanesBlondes wrote:Claire Williams is a moron.
No, Claire Williams is protecting the interests of her team because they have the best engine. An moron TP would give Ferrari and Renault a free pass to catch up, plus the danger that it might inadvertently end up with Merc engines being slowest.

It has always been so. All team TPs protect the interest of their team when negotiating rule changes.

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SectorOne
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Kiril Varbanov wrote:Engine 'performance catch-up' must be allowed. This year (and next one) is all about Mercedes, right? That is so exciting.
so you are in favor of an aero-performance catch-up as well? Because whether it´s the engine or aero that makes the difference, to the viewer 5 tenths ahead is still 5 tenths ahead.

Renault and Ferrari did less of a good job, just like we see in Aerodynamics.
Then at the end of the year, they all get to start fresh, just like we see in Aerodynamics.

You can throw a billion dollars at the Lotus, it´s still going to be a piece of sh/t.
WilliamsF1 wrote:This year's engine disparity has been covered by the exciting teammate battle within the Merc Team. If Hamilton had dominated or if Rosberg was any less of a driver like one of Schumacher's other team mates F1 would have been in a serious crisis. Too much of a domination by a team is never great for a sport, Merc domination with CLK_GTR killed a sport Porsche 917 too killed a sport.
We just got out of a 4 year long aero dominance.
Is this not proof that F1´s problems lie way beyond whether a team has a better engine or better aero?
You are giving teams a book with rules, they they bugger off and build their own creation.
How can you expect to have this unrealistic dream that 22 cars will be within 2 tenths from each other?

Whether the fastest car is 2 seconds or 4 tenths ahead it makes no difference other then how many seconds faster they cross the finish line.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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richard_leeds wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:Claire Williams is a moron.
No, Claire Williams is protecting the interests of her team because they have the best engine. An moron TP would give Ferrari and Renault a free pass to catch up, plus the danger that it might inadvertently end up with Merc engines being slowest.

It has always been so. All team TPs protect the interest of their team when negotiating rule changes.
I disagree. It just shows that CW isn't a real racer, but just another modern day bureaucrat masquerading as a racer/businessman. Instead of a "Bring it on! Let's have both engineering and on-track competition!" voice, we have just another voice in the chorus of non-competition, spec tire, homologate everything, spec F1.

She and the lot of them are disgusting.

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MOWOG
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Surely it is predictable for any human being to seek to protect any advantage, no? Politicians and corporations do it all the time. And yes, I know, I know. Don't call you Shirley! :lol:



It is the job of the governing body to provide a framework for the sport that is exciting for the fans but safe for the participants, not the teams themselves. Otherwise you wind up with a total disaster like the CART debacle in US open wheel racing.

The failure belongs to the FIA, not any of the team principles. Jean Todt has been dreadful as FIA president. He almost makes me nostalgic for Max Mosely. Emphasis on "almost". :roll:
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Richard
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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It's no different to the howls of protest from Ferrari and Merc about Renault asking to update their engine a few years ago. It happens anytime someone has some technical advantage, the slow teams clamour to change the rules. CW is doing exactly what other TPs have done for decades before her.

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FoxHound
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Howls of protest?

Please Richard, point us to these derisions of protest.
So far as I'm aware, if a part could be proven as unreliable and/or far cheaper to produce in a mildly differing form, it was deemed acceptable to change.

I'm also certain that both Ferrari and Mercedes not only utilised this facility, but they even held veto power over certain changes along with Renault.

Be that as it may, when Renault did get their dispensation for change. ..it allowed far greater utilisation of fuel for the EBD concept.
Something Mercedes and Ferrari could not replicate without a near total redesign of their engines.

Case in point, check the fuel weight for Mclaren and Mercedes during the 2011/12 seasons. I may be wrong, but I believe Ferrari had an even thirstier engine than Merc.

So there is precedent for an engine manufacturer having an advantage frozen into the rules, clearly and without derisions of protest from either Ferrari or Mercedes.
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diffuser
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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flyboy2160 wrote:
richard_leeds wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:Claire Williams is a moron.
No, Claire Williams is protecting the interests of her team because they have the best engine. An moron TP would give Ferrari and Renault a free pass to catch up, plus the danger that it might inadvertently end up with Merc engines being slowest.

It has always been so. All team TPs protect the interest of their team when negotiating rule changes.
I disagree. It just shows that CW isn't a real racer, but just another modern day bureaucrat masquerading as a racer/businessman. Instead of a "Bring it on! Let's have both engineering and on-track competition!" voice, we have just another voice in the chorus of non-competition, spec tire, homologate everything, spec F1.

She and the lot of them are disgusting.

If I was CW. I'd do the same thing. In the end she has a real chance at beating Ferrari to 3ird in the constructors. Any reduction in the freeze is in Ferrari's favour. They likely will not win but they have a chance.

I think she's just being realistic. After all, 1 person at Williams can't do what 10 people are paid to do at Merc... Realistically the only way you can say "Bring it on!" is if you have a cap.
Last edited by diffuser on Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FoxHound
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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flyboy2160 wrote: She and the lot of them are disgusting.
She was schooled by Sir Frank Williams, flyboy.

I get what you are saying, but I don't think much has changed at the top of F1 for over 30 years.
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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But the current problem is mercedes' vast superiority, ruins competition.
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flyboy2160
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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FoxHound wrote:
flyboy2160 wrote: She and the lot of them are disgusting.
She was schooled by Sir Frank Williams, flyboy.

I get what you are saying, but I don't think much has changed at the top of F1 for over 30 years.
Not changed in 30 years? Dude, you need to get in the Delorean time machine and revisit those olden daze. The rules were so open people drove trucks through the loopholes: active suspension, sliding skirts, vacuum cars, venturi tunnels, 10000000hp qualifying engines, qualifying tires, witches brew xylene/toluene fuel, frantic engine development race-to-race, how-high can you go 20,000+ rpm......

Not like the Tree Hugging Save the World from all Oppression We must Be Relevant in the Whole History of the World Everyone Must be The Same crap we have now.

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FoxHound
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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flyboy2160 wrote:
FoxHound wrote:
flyboy2160 wrote: She and the lot of them are disgusting.
She was schooled by Sir Frank Williams, flyboy.

I get what you are saying, but I don't think much has changed at the top of F1 for over 30 years.
Not changed in 30 years? Dude, you need to get in the Delorean time machine and revisit those olden daze. The rules were so open people drove trucks through the loopholes: active suspension, sliding skirts, vacuum cars, venturi tunnels, 10000000hp qualifying engines, qualifying tires, witches brew xylene/toluene fuel, frantic engine development race-to-race, how-high can you go 20,000+ rpm......

Not like the Tree Hugging Save the World from all Oppression We must Be Relevant in the Whole History of the World Everyone Must be The Same crap we have now.
I believe I was referring to the corporate aspect of your point.
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Pierce89
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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tomazy wrote:The problem with unfreeze is, that as far as I know, all the engine manufactures agried to the curent rules? Why change them now, when they all knew what is waiting for them if they mess thing up? I am sure that they could write a rule difirently and make the freeze later.
stefan_ wrote:It would have been interesting to hear what Claire Williams had to say if they had the same car as in 2011 or 2013.
I can't remmember Williams complaining about cold blowing (2011) and coander exhaust (2013) in those years, I think that they even said that they dont know how to exploit those things, and that this is there fault and not the regulations, becouse the rules are the same for everybody.
Well I can remember Williams complaung about EBD, whether you can or not. Williams liked the Silverstone 2011 deal and lobbied to keep the mid season changes.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

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Kiril Varbanov
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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SectorOne wrote:
Kiril Varbanov wrote:Engine 'performance catch-up' must be allowed. This year (and next one) is all about Mercedes, right? That is so exciting.
so you are in favor of an aero-performance catch-up as well? Because whether it´s the engine or aero that makes the difference, to the viewer 5 tenths ahead is still 5 tenths ahead.
I'm in favor of any sensible catch-up within nicely regulated rules and meaningful financing. Tough task, I know, but allegedly, there are lots of smart heads in F1, right?

Dominance isn't what people want - it is that simple, unless you are a true fanboy. Some liked Ferrari + MSC dominance, then it was time for Red Bull to celebrate, today AMG shine. History shows that this isn't going to be short time, and this is very demotivating. I can certainly tell that worldwide, even in terms of non-measurable metrics (the fan joy) other types of motor sports are gaining more and more traction. They are approachable, social-media-aware, are cheap to attend and easy to follow, but most of all, they do offer thrill and excitement. The media numbers are clear as well, too. Although it could take a full-blown 12 page analytic report for the actual output, I can tell that F1 is declining. Le Mans is happy to have figure rise, Formula E made overwhelming debut, and F1 talks about costs, engine freeze, banning of technologies and is full of media haze.

This is the state of F1 right now:
Image

Everybody seem happy for the press conference, but things are frozen. Don't even get me started on the noise... F1 lost a lot there.