Engine Unfreeze

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CBeck113
CBeck113
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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xpensive wrote:But the current problem is mercedes' vast superiority, ruins competition.
THAT is the only thing that matters. Mercedes & their customers have also cashed in (OK, are in the process of...) on their advantage in 2014. But, like 2011 with the Renault motor, I believe that the teams, even if they have the power to stop any changes, have a personal interest and to help improve the show: in the interest of their own wallets (keyword: TV revenues). They get a higher percentage of the pot by winning, but risk of lowering their revenue by dominating, which is then a long-term issue not easily solved ( = customer satisfaction, something Mercedes learned alot about during the '90s with the E-Class W210. In a nutshell: all taxis here in Germany were E Classes, and it was THE car to own this side of the S-Class, but due to quality issues [rust, transmission problems] coupled with Mercedes' response: "We don't have problems, we're Mercedes", they lost their market share, and now Audi and BMW compete for market share. They are also forced to send exorberant amounts of money to buy/win their customers back - usually 10 times as much as it would have cost them to solve the problems in the first place.) I don't think F1 would profit from domination, considering that it is already in decline, most likely due to stupid rules and ...domination.
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Richard
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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I think there are three issues here and I'm not sure their correlation shows causation.

The first is about changing the rules mid season to allow the slow teams to catch up. IMHO that sounds like some teams are sore losers. Wolff and Williams have said no, Abiteboul says it might help or it might not, meanwhile Mattiacci says it's not fair. Not surprisingly the responses are exactly the same as the performance of their respective engines.

The second issue relates to the principle of homolgation and limits on engine configuration. Yes I'd like to see more variation in the engine configuration because it'd be technically interesting. However it would lead to greater diversity in performance, hence teams being further apart.

The third is the complaint is about Merc dominance. There have been seasons that have had more dominant teams under much more open regs and no engine freeze:

Code: Select all

Team 	Season  Percentage wins
McLaren	1988	   94%
Ferrari	2002	   88%
Ferrari	2004	   83%
Mercedes  2014	   77%
Williams  1996	   75%
McLaren	1984	   75%
Red Bull  2013	   68%
Benetton  1995	   65%
Red Bull  2011	   63%
Williams  1993	   63%
Williams  1992	   63%
McLaren   1989	   63%
Ferrari	2000	   59%
McLaren	2005	   53%

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FW17
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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I have no clew why CW is blocking this one.

Next year anyway she is going to be outside the top 4 with or without the relaxation of engine freeze. They are also going to be beaten by lotus and force india using the merc engine.

Her only real worry is about being beaten be sauber and torro rosso so now we know why she is she so scared.

PS - I am a Williams fan but not the way the team works. Adam Parr issue still make me bitter.

xpensive
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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I think the most sensible ting would be to revert to the atmo V8s for 2015, that would also give the minnows a chance,
as 20+ MEUR per season for these turbo PUs is total insanity, 20+ million EUR!

Engine equality is not necessarily a bad thing, just look at the early 70s, when everybody had a cossie.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Richard
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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WilliamsF1 wrote:I have no clew why CW is blocking this one.
For the same reason that Totto Wolf is against it, and the same reason that Renault think it might help but they're also worried they might lose ground. You can only win in F1 if you selfishly guarding every competitive advantage and use sharp elbows to keep the other teams behind you.

ParkerArt
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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xpensive wrote:I think the most sensible ting would be to revert to the atmo V8s for 2015...
That is never going to happen. Renault, even with all their troubles, is fully invested in more relevant engines and Mercedes will walk if Bernie ties to force the issue.

Formula Ferrari is just not going to work.

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diffuser
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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richard_leeds wrote:I think there are three issues here and I'm not sure their correlation shows causation.

The first is about changing the rules mid season to allow the slow teams to catch up. IMHO that sounds like some teams are sore losers. Wolff and Williams have said no, Abiteboul says it might help or it might not, meanwhile Mattiacci says it's not fair. Not surprisingly the responses are exactly the same as the performance of their respective engines.

The second issue relates to the principle of homolgation and limits on engine configuration. Yes I'd like to see more variation in the engine configuration because it'd be technically interesting. However it would lead to greater diversity in performance, hence teams being further apart.

The third is the complaint is about Merc dominance. There have been seasons that have had more dominant teams under much more open regs and no engine freeze:

Code: Select all

Team 	Season  Percentage wins
McLaren	1988	   94%
Ferrari	2002	   88%
Ferrari	2004	   83%
Mercedes  2014	   77%
Williams  1996	   75%
McLaren	1984	   75%
Red Bull  2013	   68%
Benetton  1995	   65%
Red Bull  2011	   63%
Williams  1993	   63%
Williams  1992	   63%
McLaren   1989	   63%
Ferrari	2000	   59%
McLaren	2005	   53%

Re-thinking the engine freeze back in March might have been a good idea. Rethinking now is a waste of time and Money. For this year any ways. This unfreeze will become less of an issue as time goes on.

With regards to being sore losers...If they would have allowed a 24% change for the British GP and after( a 1 time deal..no rolling opening). This would have given the better engine value for their early season work but still give other engine manufactures a chance to atone for their short comings. I also believe it would have limited effect on costs.


With regards with Merc Dominance...we need to decrease occurrences of "domination" as much as possible because in my opinion they are bad for the sport.

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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richard_leeds wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:Claire Williams is a moron.
No, Claire Williams is protecting the interests of her team because they have the best engine. An moron TP would give Ferrari and Renault a free pass to catch up, plus the danger that it might inadvertently end up with Merc engines being slowest.

It has always been so. All team TPs protect the interest of their team when negotiating rule changes.
No, she has a severe lack of foresight or knowledge to understand that it would do more for F1's marketing if engine development were allowed in-season.

This is exactly why F1 is where it is currently; wallowing in irrelevance.
Last edited by Richard on Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Disparaging comments removed
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Raleigh
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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WilliamsF1 wrote:Next year anyway she is going to be outside the top 4 with or without the relaxation of engine freeze. They are also going to be beaten by lotus and force india using the merc engine.
I completely disagree with you.

Williams may well be yet to peak, only the first season with Pat Symonds and the Merc engine plus having a bigger budget for next year. Meanwhile Lotus has lost the key personnel responsible for its successes in 2012-13 and only slides further down the field as the year goes on. Lotus limps into 2015 facing further budget/staff cuts and with its lead driver desperately trying to bail out. Force India this season is the same as Force India every year since 2009. At some point in the year they will take a podium or two, the rest of the season is spent scrapping in the lower points positions. I don't see this changing in 2015.

Williams looks to be the strongest Merc customer next year.

Teams (and drivers) have been jealously defended every advantage and trying to disallow competitors gains (unless they can be copied to advantage) going back 30-40 years at least. Just look at ground effect, fan cars, 6 wheelers, turbo vs NA at the end of the 80s, active suspension, Prost getting a contract that let him veto taking on Senna in equal machinery, etc, etc.

From what I understand Ferrari and Renault are planning a substantial change in engine architecture over the winter, and then want to be able to adjust/fine-tune these changes for the summer onwards. Meanwhile Merc is only updating its current and very successful engine layout, so they expect their engine to work well right from the season start and would not benefit as much from mid-season changes.

Richard
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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GitanesBlondes wrote: it would do more for F1's marketing if engine development were allowed in-season.
I don't disgaree with you, but changing the rules that dramatically mid-season would seem like the FIA were trying to rig the competition. I'd thought we'd left that sort of meddling back in the history books with Moseley and Ferrari International Assistance.

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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richard_leeds wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote: it would do more for F1's marketing if engine development were allowed in-season.
I don't disgaree with you, but changing the rules that dramatically mid-season would seem like the FIA were trying to rig the competition. I'd thought we'd left that sort of meddling back in the history books with Moseley and Ferrari International Assistance.
They already did that last season with the Pirelli tire construction change.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

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FW17
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Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:56 am

Re: Engine Unfreeze

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richard_leeds wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote: it would do more for F1's marketing if engine development were allowed in-season.
I don't disgaree with you, but changing the rules that dramatically mid-season would seem like the FIA were trying to rig the competition. I'd thought we'd left that sort of meddling back in the history books with Moseley and Ferrari International Assistance.

What mid-season are you talking about? This season is already good as over

Facts Only
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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This is another case of Ferrari attempting to divert the blame for the problems onto the rules instead of addressing their own problems.

As someone in the industry I can without doubt say that claiming that engine development cannot happen mid-season is absurd. All three manufacturers are allowed to make changes for "reliabilty, longevity cost etc" during the season as long as the other two agree, this system is completely flawed though as no manufacturer ever says "no" to a change as they know for sure that if they do that the other manufacturer will just say "no" to their next change and then nobody will be able to change anything, so loads of peformance improvements are being run through this system as well. Also its such a grey area, if you develop something that gives you more power but also costs less is that fine? The information given on these change submissions is tiny as they are crippled by a fear of giving anything away, thus a close up picture of the corner of a cap head bolt is about all they'll submit with a vague description of the change (I know as I have been involved in there creation).

This statement from Mattiaci is particularly ludicrous: "The starting point was that in Formula One I cannot wait one year to work on the engine and the power unit"
Maybe its just poor translation but if they're waiting a year to work on the engine thats the problem right there.
Even if not, nearly every component of the PU can be changed for next year so Ferrari (like Merc and Renault) will have a brand new engine in the works, the only thing the engine freeze is stopping them doing is changing it in the last few races of this season, which is a good thing as Marrusia and Sauber wont have the money to be changing there installation mid-season so stopping a two tier engine formula.

Essentially Ferrari have messed up this years engine and are blaming the rules for the fact that they can't catch up when in actuallity its the fact the basic layout is flawed which they couldnt change anyway due to them and their customers needing a whole new rear end to change the layout.

Renault on the other hand appear to be working flat out and making good progress, I expect the Renault unit to be very close to Mercedes for next season as this years problems are being ironed out and no doubt the lessons fead into the 2015 design.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

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FW17
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Ferrari are being very sporting these days, I would have expected them to have quiet after the first few races until they got their way on the engine unfreeze. It is not like the tifosi would have turned their back on them.

Ferrari certainly is not the the same team as before, FA has been fooled by these guys.

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FW17
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Re: Engine Unfreeze

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Another thing they can do is freeze the v6 engine alone for next year, every thing else (the other 5) can be free for development through the year.That should be quiet fair.