F1 2016 pre-season testing

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nevill3
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by nevill3 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:01 pm

I love following the pre-season tests and always wish for a new interpretation to the rules that gives a team an obvious advantage. Apart from Mercedes at the start of the V6 era the last time that happened was when Brawn GP "invented" the double diffuser and romped away for a while, I remember reading an interview with JB and he said as soon as he drove the car he knew they had something special and winter testing that year confirmed it.

Red Bull have always hidden any new concepts as best they could at winter testing and often only unleashed their new concepts fully at the first GP. I remember McLaren failing miserably one year at winter testing and managed to turn things around by the first GP........This year will be a little different due to the short timespan between the end of testing and the start of the season.

I think Mercedes are still strong, Ferrari have gambled on a new aero, engine and gearbox configuration but look to have solved their old correlation problems and also look like they have gained, I have not heard any negative comments this year about Ferrari's handling and apex speeds, the rest of the field have improved too.

Who has made the most gains, personally I think McLaren, Manor and Torro Rosso have improved more than others around them but by how much only will become apparent in Australia.

I am looking forward to this years racing more than I did last year but it is a long season and the balance can and probably will change before the final GPs

Good luck to my favourite team (McLaren) and here's hoping for a three or four way battle for the drivers crown.
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dot235
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by dot235 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:37 pm

Phil wrote:
I feel you are asking the wrong question here. The question is not "what good is it to hide your true pace?" - it's rather "what good is it to show your true pace?" What advantage is there?

As long as the team can correlate the data between what they built in the factory and the simulation they ran and their on track performance, why show more than they need to?
Alright first of all you need to turn up the engine to make sure it won't go to flames during qualy.
So how do you hide your pace with EPU running max power?

a) You use different tyres.
And make it very easy for teams to figure out your true pace.

b) you fill up more fuel.
This obviously works to some extent, but you can't hide the amount of fuel you are having during race simulations etc. and you still need to complete some short stints to collect the data.

Now it's not extremely hard to figure out when the team is running with their EPU turned up (different sound etc) and when they are running low fuel. There are plenty of smart people who can calculate these things one by one and figure out your theoretical best lap time even if you didn't complete a single [low-fuel high power soft tyres] lap.

So you can fool the fans, but either way it's very hard to fool the competing teams (meaning hide 0.5s or more). So one could ask what's the point of extensively doing so in the first place? If you try too hard you will only hurt yourself by not collecting enough data.
And it's not like others will suddenly get 1 second quicker when the'll see how fast you are.

TheScrutineer
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by TheScrutineer » Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:01 pm

Some interesting observations after Barcelona testing and predictions...

http://dmanf1.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/ob ... after.html

dot235
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by dot235 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:56 pm

namao wrote:What do you think about this "fastest-car order" for Melbourne 2016 based on what we saw at testing?

1. Mercedes
2. Ferrari
3. Williams
4. Force India
5. Toro Rosso
6. Redbull
7. Sauber
8. McLaren
9. Renault
10. Manor
11. Haas
That's only speculation of course, but I would put Haas above Manor and as for McLaren Renault Sauber I reckon it it could be very close between them yet I would bet that McL will be the one to lose that trio battle. My guess (speculation) is that Renault still has considerably better EPU than Honda, looks like they made some real progress eventually.

So yeah, McLaren is also moving forward but when you put it next to other teams it doesn't look so great anymore imho. The competition this year in 3-6th row is most prob gonna be very tough while futher down Sauber gets the new C35-Ferrari which is arguably a match for new Mercedes EPU and Renault had a decent Lotus car to work on with their revived EPU which doesn't look bad anymore either and what needs to be said they obviously now have total control over it being the manufacturer team and having their own car. As bad as it sounds, my bet for McLaren is 9th place. And that's already given that there won't be any surprises from Haas with the help of Ferrari. Who knows, it might end up being what Toro Rosso to Red Bull is, in which case I can't imagine them being at the back of the grid.

GoranF1
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by GoranF1 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:45 pm

Mclaren has considerbly better drivers than Renault an Sauber.
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flickerf1
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by flickerf1 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:05 am

GoranF1 wrote:Mclaren has considerbly better drivers than Renault an Sauber.
Agreed, but the drivers from Renault and Sauber are still young. They've yet to grow into their prime. Jenson and Fernando both started way back in 2000 and 2001. Don't write them off yet.
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digitalrurouni
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by digitalrurouni » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:29 am

Not sure if this has been shared already but I was waiting with much anticipation for this: https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2016/03 ... orm-guide/

Gerhardsa
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by Gerhardsa » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:40 am

flickerf1 wrote:
GoranF1 wrote:Mclaren has considerbly better drivers than Renault an Sauber.
Agreed, but the drivers from Renault and Sauber are still young. They've yet to grow into their prime. Jenson and Fernando both started way back in 2000 and 2001. Don't write them off yet.
I suspect that McLaren might (if this 2016 car doesn't have enough potential) switch focus to 2017 very very early, whilst still continuing to improve the PU as much as possible. I have this sneaky feeling McLaren might be right at the sharp end of the grid in 2017, and with drivers like Button and Alonso... :wink: I suspect the Vettel/Kimi &Hamilton/Rosberg are the best combo's in F1 "theory" will be thoroughly tested.

Vasconia
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by Vasconia » Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:42 am

dren wrote:
I think they will be fighting it out with Williams for 3rd place. DR seems to support that. We may see the oddball podium from Williams/RB throughout the year and possibly one from TR or FI early in the season.
Yes, it depends on how much Renault has improved its engine. Because I think that RB has built a better chasis this year and he should fight with Williams, as you have said.

I dont know what will happen with Mercedes, but behind them we could have a great battle.

henra
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by henra » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:23 am

Vasconia wrote: I dont know what will happen with Mercedes, but behind them we could have a great battle.
Hmmm, dunno, I rather see a battle between Ferrari ans Merc with still a slight advantage for Merc and then a battle between Williams&RB followed by a battle between FI and TR. And then comes the rest.

Vasconia
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by Vasconia » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:23 pm

henra wrote:
Vasconia wrote: I dont know what will happen with Mercedes, but behind them we could have a great battle.
Hmmm, dunno, I rather see a battle between Ferrari ans Merc with still a slight advantage for Merc and then a battle between Williams&RB followed by a battle between FI and TR. And then comes the rest.
TR with the Ferrari engine will be very strong, I see them fighting with RB, Williams and perhaps FI, at least during the first races.

Phil
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by Phil » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:35 pm

dot235 wrote:Alright first of all you need to turn up the engine to make sure it won't go to flames during qualy.
So how do you hide your pace with EPU running max power?
That's the problem right there. They don't, because they weren't really doing qualy runs. They might use different engine modes during different stages to test its reliability and how power delivery is (although they would know that from extensive dyno testing, as well as data from last year). In the end, the team is not interested to set record lap times because you don't get points for that in testing. You want to make sure your aero works the way it should and how your car performs with the tyres and how that degredation is, as also testing those new parts they have been bolting on to get a better understanding in what has which effect. They could be doing that on engine maps where performance is reduced somewhat, so that the drivers are all just pushing to the limits of that map.

It's always good to have untapped performance ready. Using it all the time would simply put unnecessary strain on your engine that has to last multiple races, but if your engines is nearing the end of its expected mileage, it's good to know you have untapped reserves there. So again, I really don't see the point in going all out in testing.

You don't get points in testing.
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digitalrurouni
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by digitalrurouni » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:44 pm

So this is going to be a noob question but Merc racked up so many miles in testing. Do we know how many engines, chassis and gearboxes they used for the test? I think they used 2 engines - 1 for each test, 2 gearboxes - 1 for each test and 2 chassis 1 for each test just split between the 2 drivers. That sound about right? And if I am not mistaken I think the gearbox conked out in the last test when Lewis was in the car right? And I also think it would be right to assume that engine allocation this year is 5 engines for the entirety of the season for each driver right? And the engines used in the test don't count against that allocation I would think.

I think this year there will be tracks especially street circuits like Singapore where Ferrari will reign superior and even Moncao as well. The other non-street circuits Mercedes will have the advantage. Ferrari are known to be easier on the tires so on hot temperature circuits once again Ferrari will reign over the Mercedes. Unless Mercedes really went all out and knowing full well what their weaknesses were from last year they nailed it down and made a 'perfect' car. I highly doubt that is even possible IMHO.

flickerf1
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by flickerf1 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:03 pm

digitalrurouni wrote:So this is going to be a noob question but Merc racked up so many miles in testing. Do we know how many engines, chassis and gearboxes they used for the test? I think they used 2 engines - 1 for each test, 2 gearboxes - 1 for each test and 2 chassis 1 for each test just split between the 2 drivers. That sound about right? And if I am not mistaken I think the gearbox conked out in the last test when Lewis was in the car right? And I also think it would be right to assume that engine allocation this year is 5 engines for the entirety of the season for each driver right? And the engines used in the test don't count against that allocation I would think.

I think this year there will be tracks especially street circuits like Singapore where Ferrari will reign superior and even Moncao as well. The other non-street circuits Mercedes will have the advantage. Ferrari are known to be easier on the tires so on hot temperature circuits once again Ferrari will reign over the Mercedes. Unless Mercedes really went all out and knowing full well what their weaknesses were from last year they nailed it down and made a 'perfect' car. I highly doubt that is even possible IMHO.
Why are you bringing up Singapore 2015? If you look at Singapore 2014, Lewis beat Seb by 13.5 seconds that year. It was numerous problems that lead to that pretty horrible race. Plus, Lewis DNF'd so we can't be sure where he finished (though I doubt it would've been a win). Monaco 2015 was a strategy error on the teams part that ended up with a 1st and 3rd place when it could've been a 1-2. Plus, they've won Monaco 3x in a row so far.

Finally, what evidence do you have saying Ferrari are the better car on street circuits? I'm not trying to be aggressive. I just want to know why you think that.
The Wicked + The Divine.

dot235
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by dot235 » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:34 pm

Phil wrote: That's the problem right there. They don't, because they weren't really doing qualy runs. They might use different engine modes during different stages to test its reliability and how power delivery is (although they would know that from extensive dyno testing, as well as data from last year). In the end, the team is not interested to set record lap times because you don't get points for that in testing. You want to make sure your aero works the way it should and how your car performs with the tyres and how that degredation is, as also testing those new parts they have been bolting on to get a better understanding in what has which effect. They could be doing that on engine maps where performance is reduced somewhat, so that the drivers are all just pushing to the limits of that map.


I will have to disagree with you here. You still need to make sure that the results you get on the dyno correspond to the results you get on track. I think all the manufacturer teams ran they EPU at full power one time or another during testing even if just for 2 sectors or so of otherwise unrepresentative lap.