Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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SR71 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:Source? Well,the paint it's is right in front of you to see that it is a "frozen" paint. I would not advise thinking too deeply on this. It's just exciting looking paint that is all. Nothing about lightweight.

What i'm saying is, pretty much if the livery designer was tasked with changing the paint scheme to something young and exciting, the frozen colour in combination with a " neon" colour would definitley be near the top of the list because it is in style now. Simple as.
Just curious if your were guessing or had facts.

This doesn't look frozen to me. I think you've latched onto this marketing term created by BMW and aren't seeing what we really have.

The general term is matte and has been around for a long time as you know. I doubt red bull is using a frozen clear coat on a non-metallic paint. The frozen product you refer to was design for metallic paints.

As far as I'm concerned we have no evidence to suggest this paint has aero benefits, but neither is this frozen paint and if any company would invest in a slippery paint technology it would be red bull so why not keep the option on the table until we have more conclusive evidence.
I am gonna have to repeat it. It is not Matte paint. Matte is no gloss or a lower gloss aka Satin. The frozen paint is neither of these. It has particles in it that absorb light. Big difference. You are thinking too hard about this. Lol

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SR71
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
SR71 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:Source? Well,the paint it's is right in front of you to see that it is a "frozen" paint. I would not advise thinking too deeply on this. It's just exciting looking paint that is all. Nothing about lightweight.

What i'm saying is, pretty much if the livery designer was tasked with changing the paint scheme to something young and exciting, the frozen colour in combination with a " neon" colour would definitley be near the top of the list because it is in style now. Simple as.
Just curious if your were guessing or had facts.

This doesn't look frozen to me. I think you've latched onto this marketing term created by BMW and aren't seeing what we really have.

The general term is matte and has been around for a long time as you know. I doubt red bull is using a frozen clear coat on a non-metallic paint. The frozen product you refer to was design for metallic paints.

As far as I'm concerned we have no evidence to suggest this paint has aero benefits, but neither is this frozen paint and if any company would invest in a slippery paint technology it would be red bull so why not keep the option on the table until we have more conclusive evidence.
I am gonna have to repeat it. It is not Matte paint. Matte is no gloss or a lower gloss aka Satin. The frozen paint is neither of these. It has particles in it that absorb light. Big difference. You are thinking too hard about this. Lol
I understand the difference between paint finishes quite well.

I also understand there is no source that says this is 'frozen' clearcoat.

Neither of us can tell from photos what we actually have here, but given the specular quality in sun light - my best guess is we can exclude 'frozen'.

Also, the frozen clear coat was developed (now i am the one repeating) for metallic paint AND was developed for consumer cars that will be subjected to many temperature ranges, exposure to chemicals, and stupid owners who will apply wax and other stuff they shouldnt put on the frozen clearcoat.

Red bull has a completely different set of constraints and characteristics they are dealing with - they also want to be faster.

Your "guess" is frozen and I understand that, however, it's still a guess.

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strad
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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I find it hard to believe they put 6+ pounds of paint on an F1 car. My hot rod painter friend tells me that a specialty paint job could weigh up to 7 pounds or so. They weigh what they mix. But that is a hot rod with way thick primer and paint for block sanding and such.
The paint on a modern road car is about:
Typical Thicknesses
Primer: .3 - 1.5 mils
Base (color) coat: .5 - 1.5 mils
Specialty coats (optional): .3 - .8 mils
Clear coat: 1.5 - 4 mils
Weight is everything, if he was here Colin Chapman would tell you.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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SR71 wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:
SR71 wrote:
Just curious if your were guessing or had facts.

This doesn't look frozen to me. I think you've latched onto this marketing term created by BMW and aren't seeing what we really have.

The general term is matte and has been around for a long time as you know. I doubt red bull is using a frozen clear coat on a non-metallic paint. The frozen product you refer to was design for metallic paints.

As far as I'm concerned we have no evidence to suggest this paint has aero benefits, but neither is this frozen paint and if any company would invest in a slippery paint technology it would be red bull so why not keep the option on the table until we have more conclusive evidence.
I am gonna have to repeat it. It is not Matte paint. Matte is no gloss or a lower gloss aka Satin. The frozen paint is neither of these. It has particles in it that absorb light. Big difference. You are thinking too hard about this. Lol
I understand the difference between paint finishes quite well.

I also understand there is no source that says this is 'frozen' clearcoat.

Neither of us can tell from photos what we actually have here, but given the specular quality in sun light - my best guess is we can exclude 'frozen'.

Also, the frozen clear coat was developed (now i am the one repeating) for metallic paint AND was developed for consumer cars that will be subjected to many temperature ranges, exposure to chemicals, and stupid owners who will apply wax and other stuff they shouldnt put on the frozen clearcoat.

Red bull has a completely different set of constraints and characteristics they are dealing with - they also want to be faster.

Your "guess" is frozen and I understand that, however, it's still a guess.
I will admit it is a guess. But i think it is a good one.

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flynfrog
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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http://m.products.axaltacs.com/mcat/us/ ... obile=true

Mix some of this into the clear coat bam done.

Looks like BMW call the frozen paint "matte"
http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/11/15/bmw-f ... uidelines/

I haven't seen anything saying it has magic light absorbing particles in it. Id love to learn more if anyone can provide some more info.


I do buy a lot of flat mil spec paint for work it just has duller additives in it. Nothing special.

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bdr529
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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Hankmoody wrote: About the gloss levels I can say that you can create extra low gloss paint by adding "magic dust" to low gloss paint. "Flat gloss" is typically used by military and Flat paint normally has low radar reflection but ofcourse it also needs that specific shape of object.
These are widely known "secrets"
Yes I'am aware of the different ways and various types of flattening and matting agents that can bee add to base and clear costs to adjust their gloss levels. manufacturers like PPG, BASF among others make them for the refinishing industry
http://us.ppgrefinish.com/PPG-Refinish/ ... s-Finishes

My comments weren't real directed towards the coatings used in the production of military vehicles and more towards the coatings used in mass production vehicles for the consumer market.
and BMW use of the name "frozen" and the fact that they could've easily have chosen another name to describe that paint finish.

I hope you didn't think I was inferring Red Bull were using the same paint as BMW.
As for the paint that Red Bull are using now being more of a special coating, I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't bet against it
I did grow up in the paint & chemical industry, and I'v made my share of 1 gal. batch, one off's in the lab before

henra
henra
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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PlatinumZealot wrote: I will admit it is a guess. But i think it is a good one.
Everyone thinks his guess is a good one... :mrgreen:

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Gridlock
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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flynfrog wrote:I haven't seen anything saying it has magic light absorbing particles in it. Id love to learn more if anyone can provide some more info.


I do buy a lot of flat mil spec paint for work it just has duller additives in it. Nothing special.
I'm not clear :roll: whether you're referring to BMW or mil paint with the first sentence but mil paint is definitely engineered to eliminate reflections for obvious reasons, and if you use the paint on a road-going vehicle in the UK - IIRC - you must then always run with sidelights turned on.
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outsid3r
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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This may sound stupid, but what if the 'frozen' finish is simulating a golf ball's surface?



I don't think anyone has ever tried it in F1? (correct me if i'm wrong)

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hollus
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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Golf ball dimples have been discussed here a number of times:
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... f=6&t=7546" target="_blank
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... f=6&t=6649" target="_blank
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... f=6&t=5455" target="_blank
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... ?f=6&t=881" target="_blank

Not saying that it can't work, but dimples in a golf ball are an attempt to give aerodynamic properties to something for which it is forbidden to design the shape. Not the case in an F1 car except in very few places like the tires.
¡Puxa Esportin!

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GM7
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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flynfrog
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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Gridlock wrote:
flynfrog wrote:I haven't seen anything saying it has magic light absorbing particles in it. Id love to learn more if anyone can provide some more info.


I do buy a lot of flat mil spec paint for work it just has duller additives in it. Nothing special.
I'm not clear :roll: whether you're referring to BMW or mil paint with the first sentence but mil paint is definitely engineered to eliminate reflections for obvious reasons, and if you use the paint on a road-going vehicle in the UK - IIRC - you must then always run with sidelights turned on.

sorry word vomit after a long day. PZ seems to think that there are light absorbing particles in BMW paint. I havent seen any of this mentioned anywhere. Dullers and matteers (not real words) are used all the time in the mil spec paint we buy for work. The additive I posted is what you would mix with a clear coat to give it the dull look.

BDR covered it pretty well in his post. My guess is is a dulling agent mixed into a standard clear coat. If it was anything more than that they would make a press release touting how amazing it is.

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bdr529
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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Hankmoody wrote: No need to search TDS as low friction particles or ceramics are non harmful substances so no need to put those to TDS or MSDS. Also note that if it is product that "does not excist" there are no data sheets made for it.
F1 paints are not guarded by the rule book I assume. :)
I'm not sure were you live or what chemical company you work for, but the last time I looked you still had to produce a MSDS sheet for every type of paint or coating, you manufactured, , That dose not mean the people using the paint have to have the msds sheet, but the company making the products still has to have one for it.

You mentioned low friction particles or ceramics, the raw material used in some coatings may not need a MSDS, (like water).
But the overall product that it's used in will need one, even some clay based ceramics used in table ware will contain things like silica or kaolinite. No amount of winking and nudging will work with the gov't agencies, you have to produce the facts

A technical data sheet has nothing to do with whether or not a paint or coating is harmful, that's not all it's indented for.
It's for information on Product description, it's physical properties, performance qualities, application guidelines, and lastly the products hazard safety information, if it's not hazards then nothing is written, and if it is, then there some info on it and/or it will say to read the MSDS sheet.
Again the consumer doesn't always need the TDS, but the manufacturer does.

You can get a TDS for 3M's "General purpose masking tape" nothing harmful about using that product, 3M still has it
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/3090 ... g-tape.pdf

I have not doubt that vortexrulez and flynfrog can get a hold of both a TDS and MSDS from their suppliers for every product they buy from them, if they ask.

As for your products that "don't excist". My families company made coatings for the canadian gov't, including the military
that were not for sale to any one else. You still had to make a TDS along with a MSDS for those products as well
Last edited by bdr529 on Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:03 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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bdr529
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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flynfrog wrote:
BDR covered it pretty well in his post. My guess is is a dulling agent mixed into a standard clear coat. If it was anything more than that they would make a press release touting how amazing it is.
I'm hoping they let us know more about it, Only if to satisfy my personal curiosity
I'm still serching for some info. but without knowing who makes the "paint" or were their getting it from.
It's next to impossible to know for sure the what and how's

the other problem I'm having in my search is that I keep coming upon the phrase
" Red Bull painted itself into a corner" with regards to an engine supplier" :lol:

I'm just happy someone did something different for a change, regardless of any percevied performance gain or loss

I did come across a little info on the 2014 cars paint job and would assume it was the same for some of the previous years
“The cars are repainted with fluorescent paint for the night races,” Halfar points out, smiling. “Got to keep the sponsors happy and make sure their logos are clearly visible.”
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=ca

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Gridlock
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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bdr529 wrote: I'm still serching for some info. but without knowing who makes the "paint" or were their getting it from.
I guarantee Red Bull Racing is getting it from Red Bull Technology :D
#58