Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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bhall II
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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With regard to possible aerodynamic implications of a matte finish, it should be somewhat easy to discern whether RB12's finish is cosmetic or functional by simply looking at the undersides of its wings. The tops are clearly matte - weird phrase if you think about it - but I've not yet seen definitive imagery of the rest.

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Compared to a relatively smooth aerodynamic surface, a coarse surface will hasten the transition from a laminar boundary layer to a turbulent boundary layer. Since it's generally advantageous in the context of F1 to delay that transition for as long as possible in order to create as much downforce as possible, if the undersides of the wings have a matte finish like the rest of the car, it's probably safe to assume the finish has no aerodynamic effect. (Or that Red Bull has totally abdicated logic and reason this year.)

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ME4ME
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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strad
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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thanks ME4ME
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
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DiogoBrand
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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If Red Bull's full matte finish gives them an aerodynamic advantage, I wonder what Renault can achieve with their honeycomb matte finish on the rear end of the car. They must be very advanced on the effects of matte paint on aerodynamics.

thisisatest
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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bhall II wrote:With regard to possible aerodynamic implications of a matte finish, it should be somewhat easy to discern whether RB12's finish is cosmetic or functional by simply looking at the undersides of its wings. The tops are clearly matte - weird phrase if you think about it - but I've not yet seen definitive imagery of the rest.

http://i.imgur.com/IyUc7et.jpg

Compared to a relatively smooth aerodynamic surface, a coarse surface will hasten the transition from a laminar boundary layer to a turbulent boundary layer. Since it's generally advantageous in the context of F1 to delay that transition for as long as possible in order to create as much downforce as possible, if the undersides of the wings have a matte finish like the rest of the car, it's probably safe to assume the finish has no aerodynamic effect. (Or that Red Bull has totally abdicated logic and reason this year.)
Although the matte finish would hasten the transition to a turbulent boundary layer, it is that small amount of turbulence that keeps the airflow attached further around a curve. How? Don't know, but it does.

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bdr529
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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I found this from Hot Rod magazine (2007),
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/paint-body ... odynamics/

The article is about wind tunnel testing Hod Rod mag's 1980 Camaro they took to Bonneville
This is at the end of the article, along with a couple of more things they say doesn't have an effect
or as they put it "Aero Stuff That Doesn't Really Matter"

Wax: Contrary to what you may read on your favorite message board,
well-waxed, smooth paint is no more aerodynamic than the worst spray-can, flat-black primer job you can imagine.

Golf-ball dimples: They do not work on cars, regardless of the scale of the dimples,
unless your car is a 1.68-inch-diameter sphere spinning through the air with no ground plane.

J.A.W.
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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bdr529 wrote:I found this from Hot Rod magazine (2007),
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/paint-body ... odynamics/

The article is about wind tunnel testing Hod Rod mag's 1980 Camaro they took to Bonneville
This is at the end of the article, along with a couple of more things they say doesn't have an effect
or as they put it "Aero Stuff That Doesn't Really Matter"

Wax: Contrary to what you may read on your favorite message board,
well-waxed, smooth paint is no more aerodynamic than the worst spray-can, flat-black primer job you can imagine.

Golf-ball dimples: They do not work on cars, regardless of the scale of the dimples,
unless your car is a 1.68-inch-diameter sphere spinning through the air with no ground plane.
AFAIR, 'Mythbusters' TV show ran 'golf-ball dimple' surface tests, both on scale models, & on actual cars with scaled-up dimples, & found ~10% improvement in fuel economy..

In WW2, the RAE tested the effects of careful gloss paint/ fine surface/wax coats for speed on Spitfires, & found
the improvement to be worthwhile putting the extra time into doing..
Likewise, a special 'lamp-black' matte-black low-vis night-fighter scheme devised for the fast Mosquito - was deleted due to
the significant speed loss shown, & shown due to the matte coating..

Perhaps current F1 teams running limited area wings at draggy AoA for down-force, could investigate the research done on Humpback whale fin-dynamics, in which the lumpy-bumpy looking leading edge - tested as low drag at high AoA,
compared to the synthetic standard of foil..
We are standing on the toes of Hobbits. So wear safety boots.

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SR71
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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It's generally safe to say that there is nothing in the public sphere (non-military) that indicates a specific paint would change the aerodynamics in any dramatic way and if anything did change, it would almost be immeasurable (on something as small as an F1 car and as low speed (relatively speaking)).

If Ted's belief that this final surface is aero positive, then this is something completely NEW or out of the military confidential world - I doubt any youtube deep dive is gonna yield results that influence this conversation one way or the other.

One thing we do know, glossy paint has reflections, reflections can distract from sponsor/partner/team name/branding graphics. Every shot I've seen of the RB chassis shows off the graphics equally, in almost all lighting conditions. My gut tells me this is the #1 reason for this choice - not because it's "cool" - even if RB is the coolest brand on the grid.

bhall II
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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thisisatest wrote:Although the matte finish would hasten the transition to a turbulent boundary layer, it is that small amount of turbulence that keeps the airflow attached further around a curve. How? Don't know, but it does.
The turbulence energizes air flow, which allows it to overcome more of the adverse pressure gradient, delaying separation. That comes with markedly reduced efficiency, but it's a good point that I didn't consider - even if I still can't imagine the finish has any effect at F1 speeds.
J.A.W. wrote:[...]

Perhaps current F1 teams running limited area wings at draggy AoA for down-force, could investigate the research done on Humpback whale fin-dynamics, in which the lumpy-bumpy looking leading edge - tested as low drag at high AoA,
compared to the synthetic standard of foil..
Tubercles.

Image

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bdr529
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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J.A.W. wrote: AFAIR, 'Mythbusters' TV show ran 'golf-ball dimple' surface tests, both on scale models, & on actual cars with scaled-up dimples, & found ~10% improvement in fuel economy..

In WW2, the RAE tested the effects of careful gloss paint/ fine surface/wax coats for speed on Spitfires, & found
the improvement to be worthwhile putting the extra time into doing..
Likewise, a special 'lamp-black' matte-black low-vis night-fighter scheme devised for the fast Mosquito - was deleted due to
the significant speed loss shown, & shown due to the matte coating..
I have not heard of careful gloss paint before?,
The only info I found that mentions "careful gloss paint", is 1 article that mentions it's use, as a master for a silicone mold
Model Makers for glass and acrylic prototypes from CAD files,.http://stanfordpd.pbworks.com/w/page/16 ... AD%20files
Perhaps you can shed some light on this product. Is this just a trade name?, Was it made during the war?
Can it be used on an aircraft as well as in model's for glass and acrylic prototypes?

I did quickly read the article from RAE Farnborough on Improvement of Performance of Fighter Aircraft.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... e1501.html Tempest V, Mustang III and Spitfire XIV
It only states,
"the paint was stripped from the leading 2 ft. of the wing surfaces of each aircraft and then repainted,
the rest of the wing was rubbed down
"
It also states
Again it must be emphasized that thorough rubbing down is the most important feature in producing a smooth surface
and that the smoothness of the surface is entirely independent of the glossiness of the finish


Spitfire: "The paintwork was in poor condition. Parts of the leading edge and inboard surfaces of the wings
were very badly chipped and scored"
Results "The increase in level speed due to improved quality of finish was 8 mph"

Mustang: "The paintwork was in a very poor condition. The paint on the leading edge and inboard surfaces of the wings
was badly chipped. This is most serious in the case of the Mustang due to the thickness of the paint layer.
At least six separate coats of paint had been applied

A very badly chipped and scored paint finish doesn't equate to a flat or matte paint
maybe you could give us a link to the gloss vs flat paint test done on the Mosquito

Anyways paints manufactured 70 years ago, are not the same as the paints made today,
let alone the equipment and methods used to applying it back then

J.A.W.
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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bdr529 wrote:
A very badly chipped and scored paint finish doesn't equate to a flat or matte paint
maybe you could give us a link to the gloss vs flat paint test done on the Mosquito

Anyways paints manufactured 70 years ago, are not the same as the paints made today,
let alone the equipment and methods used to applying it back then
Sure bdr..., check http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org - the Mosquito section shows a similar ( ~8mph)
loss in speed from the matte paint finish as the failure to maintain a "careful" attention to fine paint-surface finish detail.
( & DH factory testing showed even greater drag effects from the contrast).

While paint has no doubt changed since WW2 ( not least due to solvent regs), practical effects of fineness on speed - remain.

Even when the Mustang deleted camo paint from regular production - in favour of a 'natural' bare-look metal finish,
a "careful" attention to a smoothly fine finished wing surface paint job still applied, albeit in a matching metallic silver-grey.
We are standing on the toes of Hobbits. So wear safety boots.

Jolle
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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Looking at the dynamics of a moving F1 car, the only places where you have relative undisturbed air that comes in to contact with a surface, is the FW and the floor. If the rules would allow it, a grooved floor (like for instance the underside of a skiff rowing racer) would be a area to examen. I don't think that side pods, with all the winglets and fins to guide a bit of the almost chaos like turbulence air, would benefit at any point from a micro rough surface that the matte paint gives. Maybe big dimples on the backside of the air box or very rough sandpaper like surfaces where the air needs to detach (like in front of the diffuser). The rest it just looks like a new way to be in the spotlight with their logo's.

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flynfrog
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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To simulate icing conditions in aircraft we place 36 grit sandpaper to parts of the leading edge of the wing. The results could be over 40% reduction in lift. but 36 grit is orders of magnitude rougher than matte paint.

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/pdfs/SA1 ... _Icing.pdf

page 2

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NutritionFact
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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Can someone confirm that williams is also running a matte livery?

AMuS writes this?
"In my time the Pit babe was there instead of the telemetry."
Gerhard Berger

bhall II
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Re: Possible advantages of Red Bull Racing's matte paint

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Since 2014. Only the Martini graphics are glossy.

Image