Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

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mrluke
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by mrluke » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:30 am

Looking into top speeds a little bit more, the below is a simple comparison between qualy speeds this year and last year.

I have taken Button from 2016 and Alonso from 2017 as in both years they tended to have the highest qualy speeds. For context I have also included Hamilton's speeds from 16 and 17.

Image

Looking at Mercedes to start with, as expected their speeds are slightly lower this year with a maximum delta of 4.8kmh slower (S3). The only exception being the end of S2, which follows T12, here Mercedes have been able to gain speed since 2016 suggesting that they are taking T12 quicker than last year which more than makes up for the additional drag they are running this year.

Now looking at Mclaren they are again slightly slower than last year, they have a max delta of 6.6kmh slower at the speed trap, but only 2.4kmh slower at the end of S3.

Now we "know" (accepted rumour) that Mercedes have made a significant gain on their PU this year but we still see them posting slightly slower top speeds at Bahrain. With this in mind I would find it difficult to argue that Mclaren are down on power compared to last year, if they are then it is by an insignificant amount. This likely explains why they are using the 2017 PU rather than reverting to the 2016 spec.

The other area I haven't mentioned yet is S2 and the high speed T12 where in contrast to Mercedes, Mclaren are slower than they were last year.

Nuvolari
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by Nuvolari » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:48 pm

I converted the time to distance and re-plotted the graph I posted in the McLaren team thread (a more detailed analysis is here). A little snapshot of the graph is below:

Image

This is the plot from the exit of turn 13 along the back straight of the Shanghai circuit. Hamilton and Alonso get a better exit out of turn 13, but the Ferrari accelerates much faster than McLaren and catches up at 180 km/h. What is really interesting is that the McLaren is able to maintain the acceleration delta to the Renault right up to 230 km/h, when the Renault starts catching up and passes the McLaren by 280 km/h. It is no coincidence that the Renault starts out-gunning the McLaren at the speeds where drag starts becoming a significant penalty. My guess is that the Honda is running detuned but no downforce compromises have been made from McLaren's side. If the Honda is able to run at it's original spec before all the problems were identified, it would be making the same or a bit more power than the 2017 spec Renault.
Last edited by Nuvolari on Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rscsr
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by rscsr » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:06 pm

Nuvolari wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:48 pm
I converted the time to distance and re-plotted the graph I posted in the McLaren team thread (a more detailed analysis is on my sig). A little snapshot of the graph is below:

https://samsen.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/straight.png

This is the plot from the exit of turn 13 along the back straight of the Shanghai circuit. Hamilton and Alonso get a better exit out of turn 13, but the Ferrari accelerates much faster than McLaren and catches up at 180 km/h. What is really interesting is that the McLaren is able to maintain the acceleration delta to the Renault right up to 230 km/h, when the Renault starts catching up and passes the McLaren by 280 km/h. It is no coincidence that the Renault starts out-gunning the McLaren at the speeds where drag starts becoming a significant penalty. My guess is that the Honda is running detuned but no downforce compromises have been made from McLaren's side. If the Honda is able to run at it's original spec before all the problems were identified, it would be making the same or a bit more power than the 2017 spec Renault.
could you upload the raw data as well? I would like to try to compare to ideal speed, distance curves to get somewhat realistic power differences.

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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by Nuvolari » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:25 pm

rscsr wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:06 pm
could you upload the raw data as well? I would like to try to compare to ideal speed, distance curves to get somewhat realistic power differences.
Sure, the data and an interactive plot can be found here:

https://plot.ly/~samsenB/12/#data

You can export it to your favourite format there. Please do share here when you have some results. Very interested to hear what you find!

McHonda
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by McHonda » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:16 pm

Nuvolari wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:48 pm
I converted the time to distance and re-plotted the graph I posted in the McLaren team thread (a more detailed analysis is here). A little snapshot of the graph is below:

https://samsen.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/straight.png

This is the plot from the exit of turn 13 along the back straight of the Shanghai circuit. Hamilton and Alonso get a better exit out of turn 13, but the Ferrari accelerates much faster than McLaren and catches up at 180 km/h. What is really interesting is that the McLaren is able to maintain the acceleration delta to the Renault right up to 230 km/h, when the Renault starts catching up and passes the McLaren by 280 km/h. It is no coincidence that the Renault starts out-gunning the McLaren at the speeds where drag starts becoming a significant penalty. My guess is that the Honda is running detuned but no downforce compromises have been made from McLaren's side. If the Honda is able to run at it's original spec before all the problems were identified, it would be making the same or a bit more power than the 2017 spec Renault.
That drag part where you say the Renault goes away from the McLaren is where the DRS zone kicks in. The Renault may also simply have more top end grunt and/or longer ers deployment. Max's car with only 4 cylinders was matching McLaren through every speed trap so I find it hard to believe Renault's with all 6 firing was somehow only still keeping pace with the Honda, unless that Renault has an enormous amount of drag of course.

No way to say that's down to McLaren making no downforce compromises. In fact i'd suggest it was the opposite to be able to keep pace with the full 6 cyl firing Renault until the top range during DRS.

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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:24 am

mrluke wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:30 am
Looking into top speeds a little bit more, the below is a simple comparison between qualy speeds this year and last year.

I have taken Button from 2016 and Alonso from 2017 as in both years they tended to have the highest qualy speeds. For context I have also included Hamilton's speeds from 16 and 17.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... rmat=image

Looking at Mercedes to start with, as expected their speeds are slightly lower this year with a maximum delta of 4.8kmh slower (S3). The only exception being the end of S2, which follows T12, here Mercedes have been able to gain speed since 2016 suggesting that they are taking T12 quicker than last year which more than makes up for the additional drag they are running this year.

Now looking at Mclaren they are again slightly slower than last year, they have a max delta of 6.6kmh slower at the speed trap, but only 2.4kmh slower at the end of S3.

Now we "know" (accepted rumour) that Mercedes have made a significant gain on their PU this year but we still see them posting slightly slower top speeds at Bahrain. With this in mind I would find it difficult to argue that Mclaren are down on power compared to last year, if they are then it is by an insignificant amount. This likely explains why they are using the 2017 PU rather than reverting to the 2016 spec.

The other area I haven't mentioned yet is S2 and the high speed T12 where in contrast to Mercedes, Mclaren are slower than they were last year.
I suggest that DRS has a bigger effect this year than last year, and in areas without DRS the 17 cars are a bit slower or no faster in a straight line from the added drag.
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Nuvolari
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by Nuvolari » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:49 pm

McHonda wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:16 pm
That drag part where you say the Renault goes away from the McLaren is where the DRS zone kicks in.
I don't think that's correct. From my onboards, Alonso was accelerating full throttle from 180 km/h on in the exit of turn 13, Hulkenberg from 170 km/h, both in 4th gear. They're both doing around 300 km/h by the time they reach the DRS line. The point stands that the Renault's acceleration is only greater than the McLaren after around 230 km/h.

Re: downforce, I'm purely going from the performance of both cars in the high speed turn 7, where Alonso was matching Hulkenberg's speed through there. I would not expect that if McLaren had made compromises in order to get better straight line speeds.

Also, the Honda is revving a lot higher than any other engine in the field...by using shorter gearing as per some findings of another poster here, to help mitigate some of the vibration/resonance issues (speculation). So, if Honda have solved the vibration issues, it would allow them to run the ICE at a range similar to other manufacturers, with longer gearing. Bonus would be that it wouldn't be so out of it's power curve, so better reliability has a direct consequence with power...Therefore, Honda will be able to match Renault if they are able to solve the issues plaguing the PU. Bearing in mind that Renault aren't exactly running with their full 2017 spec, but Honda will be thereabouts. I know it seems hard to believe but that's more prejudice than what can be proven with data out there.

Then, I think it will be about settling down into a decent development curve, and closing the gap to the front runners with further chassis and PU evolutions. First, I would like to see that Honda are able to completely solve their vibration problems when they introduce the next ICE.

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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by mrluke » Thu May 04, 2017 11:51 pm

Sorry this has taken me a while to compile, I am afraid it overlaps a little with the work that Nuvolari has already done but here is my attempt at a speed trace from China Qualy.

Image
2017 China Qualification Speed Trace

This has been done from an audio analysis of onboard video so should be more accurate than taking frames from a video.

I think it gives some slightly different conclusions to those posted earlier. There is a little bit of work left to do to tidy it up and post some thoughtful analysis but I wanted to share it with you as is. Unfortunately Hulk's lap is incomplete.

Next on the list is to add a lap time delta for each driver.

The Mclaren and Renault look to be very evenly matched, Renault a bit better in the slow corners, MMclaren a bit better at mid speed, renault better on high speed straights.

This would fit Renault having superior traction but running lower drag / downforce than Mclaren. However I am sure other possibilities exist, further analysis required.#

This analysis has been done all with free software and I will write up a guide for others. The Mclaren data is horrible as the engine/driveline oscillations really distort the audio analysis.
Last edited by mrluke on Sat May 20, 2017 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nuvolari
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by Nuvolari » Fri May 05, 2017 1:39 pm

Very nice, two independent investigators coming at similar conclusions via totally different methods? Sounds like science to me! I think a few tweaks still need to be made from my method but I'm getting there. I did the same speed traces from Bahrain looking at Mercedes and Haas too, which I'll post up in my blog at another time. :)

mrluke
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by mrluke » Sun May 07, 2017 4:04 pm

Track map for reference:

Image

Expanding on my previous post: (click the link below each image to read easier)

Image
2017 China Qualification DeltaTrace

ignore the sharp spikes, they reflect where I have had to fill gaps in the audio analysis, the logic for calculating the time delta needs refining to account for missing data.

Mclaren's single largest time loss is traction out of turn 3/4 which equates for around 0.5s against both Renault and Mercedes.

Over the circa 1.5km long back straight they lose another 0.5s.

Interestingly on the T10 to T11 straight they dont lose any time against Renault and very little against Mercedes.

As previously highlighted by Nuvolari, on the straights Mclaren lose time at the start due to traction, their acceleration is then pretty good up to around 280kph whereupon they start to lose out to Mercedes and Renault.

For interest here is a comparison of gear position over the lap

Image
2017 China Gear Change Comparison

Changing up is all pretty similar across the teams accept Mclaren hold on to 7th for much longer. They also use 2nd much more than the other teams. Its interesting that they are a gear lower in the slow corners and have traction issues.This suggests they are trying to keep the Honda out of the lower rev ranges which is making it even more difficult to get the power down.

Image
2017 China RPM trace

This chart is no good for detail but you can see the Honda is consistently held at a higher rev range and very rarely drops below 8krpm whereas both Renault and Mercedes seem happy to get down to 6krpm and remain a gear higher.

I would very much like to get hold of an onboard from Alonso at Russia to test out his 3 second claim, it doesn't need to have telemetry shown but clear sound is important. I can only find one clip that looks like somebody has filmed on their mobile from the tv :/

proteus
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by proteus » Sun May 07, 2017 6:05 pm

In China top speed deficit was at best 11 km/h to Mercedes, the overall speed deficit (average speed in best lap) based on the quali time was arround 6,11 km/h so aparently the chasis eats some of the time and speed loss back.
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marmer
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by marmer » Mon May 08, 2017 8:06 am

mrluke wrote:Track map for reference:

Image

Expanding on my previous post: (click the link below each image to read easier)

Image
2017 China Qualification DeltaTrace

ignore the sharp spikes, they reflect where I have had to fill gaps in the audio analysis, the logic for calculating the time delta needs refining to account for missing data.

Mclaren's single largest time loss is traction out of turn 3/4 which equates for around 0.5s against both Renault and Mercedes.

Over the circa 1.5km long back straight they lose another 0.5s.

Interestingly on the T10 to T11 straight they dont lose any time against Renault and very little against Mercedes.

As previously highlighted by Nuvolari, on the straights Mclaren lose time at the start due to traction, their acceleration is then pretty good up to around 280kph whereupon they start to lose out to Mercedes and Renault.

For interest here is a comparison of gear position over the lap

Image
2017 China Gear Change Comparison

Changing up is all pretty similar across the teams accept Mclaren hold on to 7th for much longer. They also use 2nd much more than the other teams. Its interesting that they are a gear lower in the slow corners and have traction issues.This suggests they are trying to keep the Honda out of the lower rev ranges which is making it even more difficult to get the power down.

Image
2017 China RPM trace

This chart is no good for detail but you can see the Honda is consistently held at a higher rev range and very rarely drops below 8krpm whereas both Renault and Mercedes seem happy to get down to 6krpm and remain a gear higher.

I would very much like to get hold of an onboard from Alonso at Russia to test out his 3 second claim, it doesn't need to have telemetry shown but clear sound is important. I can only find one clip that looks like somebody has filmed on their mobile from the tv :/
Could the vibration issue be at the low end of the revs as well as the high that has been spoken about or would avoiding low revs be trying to combat a lack of torque

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk


mrluke
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by mrluke » Mon May 08, 2017 9:13 am

proteus wrote:
Sun May 07, 2017 6:05 pm
In China top speed deficit was at best 11 km/h to Mercedes, the overall speed deficit (average speed in best lap) based on the quali time was arround 6,11 km/h so aparently the chasis eats some of the time and speed loss back.
Even on a drag strip the difference between top speeds would be larger than the difference between average speed. That doesn't mean one car is better in the corners.

Regarding the vibration I'm not sure, comments from Wazari suggest the high rpm usage could be intentional. However I have also noticed quite a lot of oscillation in the Mercedes trace.

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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by ronanharris09 » Mon May 08, 2017 1:04 pm

mrluke wrote:
Sun May 07, 2017 4:04 pm
As previously highlighted by Nuvolari, on the straights Mclaren lose time at the start due to traction, their acceleration is then pretty good up to around 280kph whereupon they start to lose out to Mercedes and Renault.

This chart is no good for detail but you can see the Honda is consistently held at a higher rev range and very rarely drops below 8krpm whereas both Renault and Mercedes seem happy to get down to 6krpm and remain a gear higher.
I think everyone agrees that Honda still able to accelerate well at certain level.
The data from official F1 App also shows that McLaren accelerate as well as Mercedes, however get a little stuck to reach 300s.
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Re: Mclaren Chassis Vs Honda Power Unit

Post by Hammerfist » Tue May 09, 2017 5:23 am

mrluke wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:30 am
Looking into top speeds a little bit more, the below is a simple comparison between qualy speeds this year and last year.

I have taken Button from 2016 and Alonso from 2017 as in both years they tended to have the highest qualy speeds. For context I have also included Hamilton's speeds from 16 and 17.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... rmat=image

Looking at Mercedes to start with, as expected their speeds are slightly lower this year with a maximum delta of 4.8kmh slower (S3). The only exception being the end of S2, which follows T12, here Mercedes have been able to gain speed since 2016 suggesting that they are taking T12 quicker than last year which more than makes up for the additional drag they are running this year.

Now looking at Mclaren they are again slightly slower than last year, they have a max delta of 6.6kmh slower at the speed trap, but only 2.4kmh slower at the end of S3.

Now we "know" (accepted rumour) that Mercedes have made a significant gain on their PU this year but we still see them posting slightly slower top speeds at Bahrain. With this in mind I would find it difficult to argue that Mclaren are down on power compared to last year, if they are then it is by an insignificant amount. This likely explains why they are using the 2017 PU rather than reverting to the 2016 spec.

The other area I haven't mentioned yet is S2 and the high speed T12 where in contrast to Mercedes, Mclaren are slower than they were last year.
Good work. So in essence the rumors of this year's Honda PU making similar power than the 2015 PU should be squashed.