Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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zac510
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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You can't really compare to ball sports. In these ball sports if it goes out of bounds they blow the whistle and stop the whole game. They can't, in all practicality, just blow the whistle, stop the whole race and put the car back on the track before it went off then restart it again. That's why they have to give a x-second penalty while the race is ongoing.

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strad
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Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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they and many others seem to overlook that Kimi forced him off.
When Max starts his move there is plenty of room.
There is a rule that says Kimi must leave a cars width...He did not.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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Phil
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Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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strad wrote:
30 Oct 2017, 18:59
they and many others seem to overlook that Kimi forced him off.
When Max starts his move there is plenty of room.
There is a rule that says Kimi must leave a cars width...He did not.
Bravo! =D>

Now, I'm not sure if my reply is best suited in this topic or in the 'is Verstappen 5 second penalty fair' topic, but I have just watched the following clarification by Charlie Whiting at Mexico (FIA F1 press conference) and I am simply baffled by it.



The relevant bit is right at the beginning, starting at around 2 minutes in when they show replies of the incident between Verstappen and Kimi.

At 8:45, a viewer from the audience asks precisely this question:

viewer:
Kimi pushed him off the limit - is it something that you looked at?

CW:
he said that Kimi pushed him off the track? Hum...

viewer:
he closed the door.

CW:
I am not aware of that? Did he [max] elaborate on that? Did he say where? This is not something that was drawn to our attention, I'm afraid.

(Audience I think tries to tell Charlie what they are talking about)

CW:
no, but at the time it wasn't something that was drawn to our attention. Just to clarify, what did max say about Kimi? Oh I see. Sorry, I see now what you mean. I understand the question now.

CW:
It looked to me very much as if Kimi was moving, he went in slightly wide line into T16 which is the normal line, then you go tighter in T17, so he would naturally go further to the right, closer to the apex of T17 which is where Max was trying to go and there was a big gap as you, as we all saw between Max and Kimi. So I think, I don't think Kimi shut the door. He was taking the line Max should have expected him to take.

I can't say I agree. If you watch the footage (shown to the audience at aprox. 2 minute into the above conference), you can see that Max and Kimi are driving literally side-by-side going into T17. Once Kimi gets closer to Max, he jolts to the right and ends up off track with all 4 wheels which is what he was ultimately punished for. Had Kimi not moved closer into that corner (for example by noticing Max earlier) they would have gone into T17 side by side and Max would have gained the position without being off track. I am simply baffled this wasn't taken into account, as pretty much proven by Charlies responses above.

Yes, Max did move into a gap that was going to close, so the point can be made that he took a risk of putting his car in a position that was going to be squeezed to the apex. On the other hand, Kimi could have prevented that from happening by driving more defensively and making sure Max wouldn't go for that gap, for example by taking the line Max took and blocking the inside. This would have been expected from any driver defending his position at any other corner against drivers trying to make a move up the inside.

Yes, cutting chicanes, going off track to pass someone is not allowed. But if a driver is forced off track because he is crowded, the situation is a little more complex and needs further analysis to see who is to blame. I don't agree that any driver who is crowded is automatically in the wrong because he put himself into a position. If that were the case, well, then pretty much any overtaking maneuver is flawed where an overtaker goes up the inside of another car.

Disclaimer: I am not a Max supporter, so no, I am not blinded by bias.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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F1NAC
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Joined: 31 Mar 2013, 22:35

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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He left him enough room to be with at least one wheel inside track.

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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He left him enough room to be with at least one wheel inside track.
With Kimi coming across at him I don't think that is true.
This whole thing about Max should have expected Kimi to crowd him off track is pure BS.
Try telling the judge that the guy that changed lanes into you should have expected you to be there.
You know these things invariably deteriorate into one of those scenes where the mom is wacthing her kid do some criminal act and insists "that not my boy.. you doctored the film.. my boy would never do that.
Believe what you like, you're only fooling yourself.
It's over anyway. It didn't make or lose me or you anything.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

ESPImperium
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Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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My problem with track limits is that the consistency is almost cowardus these days in the stewards and race directors room. In a Football match, if the ball goes out of play, its out of play and is enforced strictly by the referee. In a tennis match, if one of those little yellow balls crosses the base line and is called out by the line judge, its out (Unless the player calls for hawkeye on a show court) and the point goes to the opposing player.

In F1, what needs to happen is that in ares where it is obvious where the drivers will take the piss out of the rules, put loads of those yellow sausage kerbs exactly 1.5 meters off the track, even 1.2 meters off the track to keep drivers on the bloody track. F1 can't be kept to the same rules as Football or Tennis as its dangerous i know, but put a bloody deterrent there to stop the drivers doing it. And if there can't be sausage kerbs put there to damage the cars, then the cars should have a GPS sensor or some technology in place that gives a 5 second penalty without recourse or it sends a signal to the car to cut the deployment of the MGU-K and harvesting of the MGU-H to zero for the next 10 or 20 seconds to give a real and proper way to stop the drivers doing as they want.

Yes theres no hard and fast rule, however the race director should have 2 or 3 different tools of deterrent tools for various corners. Id love them to put those kerbs that were on the cars in Austria in 2016 that destroyed the cars due to the harmonic resonance that crippled the cars suspension and caused many accidents in practice.

The track limits thing with Max was utter BS, the gaining a lasting advantage rule should be revisited and reviewed as the sport has moved on from 2008 from the Kimi/Lewis incident in Spa and track design has eclipsed the rules now.

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NathanOlder
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Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 10:05
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Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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Blaming Kimi for the incident is the same as blaming Prost for the Turn1 accident at Suzuka in 1990.

Kimi did what prost did, took the racing line, its the guys job behind to go around him, not through him.
GoLandoGo
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UglyTroll
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Joined: 26 Mar 2015, 13:39

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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One thing is evident to me - both Kimi and Whiting are inadequate and sometimes unaware of their surroundings.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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you mean Vettel ?
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nokivasara
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Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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I'd like to see a clarification from the stewards for next year. Now it's different from track to track, they should be able to make the desicion of where to draw the line and use that in every race, it's not that complicated...It's silly how things are right now, the penalties are inconsistent, the drivers are complaining over the radio all the time (because they have to in order to get the stewards attention) and it all ends up looking like kids arguing over the most minute things...Silly. The stewards should all grow a pair.

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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strad wrote:
02 Nov 2017, 21:45

Try telling the judge that the guy that changed lanes into you should have expected you to be there.
Actually, yes, he should have. When changing lanes on the highway it is always the responsibility of the person changing lanes to ensure it's clear. The driver in the other lane needs to be aware of what others might do, true, but if you change lanes then you are responsible for any impact that comes from it.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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poor analogy ..The point remains true. ;-)
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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mertol
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Joined: 19 Mar 2013, 10:02

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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The one changing lanes was Kimi tho. When Max changed lanes in the entry of the turn he didn't force anyone out of the track.

Webber2011
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Joined: 25 Jan 2011, 01:01
Location: Australia NSW

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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Why don't they just have a system like the V8 Supercars ?

There's a sensor in the car and a sensor in the ground at the track limit.

Go over it once you get a message from your Team.

Go over twice you get a warning from the stewards.

Thrice you get a drive through.

Simple really............

Manoah2u
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Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

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please don't let f1 become like those annoying codemasters videogames of before.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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