450 kph F1

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
toraabe
12
Joined: 09 Oct 2014, 10:42

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

450 Km/h bring them to talladega ...

Moose
52
Joined: 03 Oct 2014, 19:41

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

Limiting downforce is equivalent to limiting cornering speed. It would guarantee no racing at all, since it would be impossible to corner faster than another person unless that other person made a mistake.

User avatar
Pierce89
60
Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

toraabe wrote:450 Km/h bring them to talladega ...
You know, as someone who lives quite close to Talladega I find that interesting, especially since 'Dega has a roval combining the road course and oval. That would be the sort of spectical.that gets worldwide attention.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

Moose wrote:Limiting downforce is equivalent to limiting cornering speed. It would guarantee no racing at all, since it would be impossible to corner faster than another person unless that other person made a mistake.
Well, today it´s not possible to corner at same speed since the trailing car always suffer from dirty air, so active aero making possible to corner at equal speed than the car in front would be a huge step forward :P

Anycase I disagree with your statement, that´d be true only if all drivers take exactly same line, but that´s far from real, driving through a corner is a lot more than the peak G achieved

Moose
52
Joined: 03 Oct 2014, 19:41

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Moose wrote:Limiting downforce is equivalent to limiting cornering speed. It would guarantee no racing at all, since it would be impossible to corner faster than another person unless that other person made a mistake.
Well, today it´s not possible to corner at same speed since the trailing car always suffer from dirty air, so active aero making possible to corner at equal speed than the car in front would be a huge step forward :P

Anycase I disagree with your statement, that´d be true only if all drivers take exactly same line, but that´s far from real, driving through a corner is a lot more than the peak G achieved
It is - but by the time you get to the level of the 22 guys competing in F1, the lines are so close to the perfect line that it makes basically no difference. These guys travel within inches of the racing line on a dry lap. Certainly not enough to make enough difference to pass someone.

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

To pass someone you need a different line anycase

notsofast
2
Joined: 10 Oct 2012, 02:56

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

The discussion on G-forces reminded me of a related discussion from a few years ago. Quite interesting and perhaps worth revisiting.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 5d#p207695
machin wrote:Rather than specifying parameters such as horsepower, downforce, weight, etc ... why not go a level further; back to the fundamental three things that govern the performance of a vehicle:-

Accelerative G-forces
Deccelerative G-forces
corning G-forces

zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

How would the g-forces be policed? If you had a lap taken away from you because you went over g-force on the data logs, well we see every year that penalising drivers after a lap or race is completed is very unpopular with the general public. It's OK in the world of science and thought experiments, but not in practice.

notsofast
2
Joined: 10 Oct 2012, 02:56

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

Wouldn't that be just like hitting the ball over the line in tennis?

zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

notsofast wrote:Wouldn't that be just like hitting the ball over the line in tennis?
In tennis the referee stops the whole game the moment there is an infraction. The equivalent in F1 would be if we stopped the whole race the moment a driver goes over the line, penalised the driver (or not, if the video referee exonerates him), then resumed the race until the next infraction occurs. This is too much of a deviation from motorsport as we know it to be reasonable, in my opinion!
I'm sure that some drivers, for example Verstappen in Mexico, take advantage of the non-stop aspect of the sport.

What we notice from the fans' complaints about drivers going over the lines is that people don't like finding out about punishments long after the race. This is particularly important in Q1, Q2 where there is only 2-3 minute window where a team needs to know whether their driver is in the next qualifying session or not so all infractions need to be cleared up ASAP. Anybody imagining up fantasy regulations for F1 needs to take this factor into account IMO (many don't).

If we put some sort of physical limit on the car, for example if, at 6G load the fuel pressure supply to the car is cut off causing a drop in horsepower, then the punishment would occur during the same lap as the infraction so represented in realtime.

I know we are a tech forum and we like fantasising over the perfect engineering solutions but I also think it's important to consider the whole environment of F1 - commercial and entertainment aspects included. Engineering will always have to live amongst them.

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

zac510 wrote:How would the g-forces be policed? If you had a lap taken away from you because you went over g-force on the data logs, well we see every year that penalising drivers after a lap or race is completed is very unpopular with the general public. It's OK in the world of science and thought experiments, but not in practice.
No need to wait for anything, it´s a sensor, if someone goes beyond the G limit a red light will lit into the stewards room and they can instantly punish the infractor

User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

zac510 wrote:If we put some sort of physical limit on the car, for example if, at 6G load the fuel pressure supply to the car is cut off causing a drop in horsepower, then the punishment would occur during the same lap as the infraction so represented in realtime.
That´s a good idea, but it should have some delay, as a sudden power drop when cornering at the limit will cause a sharp change in the balance and most probably an accident. But if the driver is warned with a light in the wheel, and the power drop start some seconds after the light warned the driver, that would work flawlessly

User avatar
FW17
165
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

G sensor is a idea

But for things to be more controlled I would suggest a maximum weight of the car measured at speed trap points. i.e. weight of car + aero weight, at 5000lbs

limit can be set to something close to what is being achieved today.

Design emphasis can than be more focused on drag reduction for same downforce and mechanical grip

User avatar
Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

Acceleration and downforce limits are practically impossible to implement.

Consider also that downforce and tyre grip literally change with the weather.

You can't have a car's legality dependent on the direction that the wind is blowing.
Not the engineer at Force India

notsofast
2
Joined: 10 Oct 2012, 02:56

Re: 450 kph F1

Post

zac510 wrote:the non-stop aspect of the sport
Good point.
Andres125sx wrote:No need to wait for anything, it´s a sensor
So, let's say that the limit for cornering is 6G. What if the punishment is to force the driver to make an adjustment each time the limit is exceeded. For example, if on lap 30 the measurement is 6.1G in turn 7, then before the end of the race he needs to take turn 7 at no more than 5.9G at least once.

I know we're just shooting the breeze here. It's the off-season! :D