2017 Pecking Order Speculation

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BanMeToo
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Re: 2017 Pecking Order Speculation

Post by BanMeToo » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:18 pm

Yea for the sake of the title fight I am concerned about Ferrari's ability to stay in the development race. Maybe things will be different this year but in a few months time we could just as well see them fighting Red Bull rather than Mercedes...

giantfan10
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Re: 2017 Pecking Order Speculation

Post by giantfan10 » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:06 pm

Fulcrum wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:03 am
Two races under low grip conditions indicate as much, but Hamilton looked to be in complete control and, if there is a difference, its small. I don't think we've seen full pace from Mercedes or Ferrari yet, not for extended periods anyway. It will be interesting to see which team produces better performance evolution. Historically this would be to Mercedes advantage.
We have no idea what Mercedes performance evolution is when you base their mastery of said performance evolution on the fact that they were cruising around at the front of the field with no competition for the last 3 years.
They have not been challenged consistently over the past 3 years because of their superioir ICU/ERS...They have a challenger now so IMHO NOW is when you get to form an opinion on their so called historical advantage.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 Pecking Order Speculation

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun May 28, 2017 5:36 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:07 pm
So after china Ferrari the quickest race car and equal on Quali with Mercedes.
Still stands?

Vasconia
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Re: 2017 Pecking Order Speculation

Post by Vasconia » Mon May 29, 2017 10:10 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 5:36 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:07 pm
So after china Ferrari the quickest race car and equal on Quali with Mercedes.
Still stands?
Let´s see what happens in Canada and Austria.

I still think that Mercedes has the fastest car but their problem with making work the tyres is hampering them.

Sevach
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Re: 2017 Pecking Order Speculation

Post by Sevach » Mon May 29, 2017 11:02 am

Right now it's questionable what will hurt the teams more, Ferrari's unreliable turbos or Merc's temperamental nature.

With that said Lewis oughta look more to the other side of the garage, Bottas performance doesn't oscillate as much.

Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Pecking Order Speculation

Post by Big Mangalhit » Mon May 29, 2017 1:31 pm

Well so far Ferrari's turbos look quite well, in the sense they haven't produced any DNF and are all still intact. Apparently the first iteration had a reliability problem but they can use that version for the FP as long as it is still working. I think the worse limit will be if they want to upgrade it together with the ICE. That will probably lead to force a penalty but as things look so far they would probably still end up 3/4 on finishing positions as long as they do it in a track like SPA/Monza considering that both Merc and Ferrari are almost lapping the whole field (in spain the next car was 1min 16 behind).
I think a DNF will be much more hurtful than a starting penalty. IF one of them has a crash or a engine blowing mid race that could potentially be 25pts.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 Pecking Order Speculation

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon May 29, 2017 7:31 pm

Sevach wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 11:02 am
Right now it's questionable what will hurt the teams more, Ferrari's unreliable turbos or Merc's temperamental nature.

With that said Lewis oughta look more to the other side of the garage, Bottas performance doesn't oscillate as much.
I think we are watching different seasons, sir. Bottas' performance is the most inconsistent of the top four drivers. The reasons for that we can discuss, but you obviously are far away from the facts.

Sevach
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Re: 2017 Pecking Order Speculation

Post by Sevach » Mon May 29, 2017 9:25 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 7:31 pm
Sevach wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 11:02 am
Right now it's questionable what will hurt the teams more, Ferrari's unreliable turbos or Merc's temperamental nature.

With that said Lewis oughta look more to the other side of the garage, Bottas performance doesn't oscillate as much.
I think we are watching different seasons, sir. Bottas' performance is the most inconsistent of the top four drivers. The reasons for that we can discuss, but you obviously are far away from the facts.
We probably are... if you look at Bottas pace compared to Mercedes main opposition it has been consistent, consistently not quite good enough to challenge, Bottas gap to the leading Ferrari didn't change much from Aus/Bah/Spain to Monaco(what changed here was that Red Bull came to play and Raikkonen finally put his car in the position it deserves) his place in the pecking order is pretty much the same, he had one peak (and one bad result) but has looked pretty much the same everywhere.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 Pecking Order Speculation

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue May 30, 2017 2:10 am

2nd in Australia but nowwhere in the race.
Pole in Bahrain but nowhere in the race.
Sliding of the track in China. Slow recovery.
Brilliant in Russia qualfiying and the race.
Nowhere in barcelona before his engine blew.
Nearly got pole in Monaco. No threat at all in the race.

He is a fast qualifier for sure. Consistent in the race definitely not.

Sevach
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Re: 2017 Pecking Order Speculation

Post by Sevach » Tue May 30, 2017 2:33 am

That is consistent, he's consistently at the same level, if a guy is great one weekend, bad the next, great again then bad again that's inconsistent.

Also in Australia he qualified third and finished third.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 Pecking Order Speculation

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed May 31, 2017 4:38 pm

Mercedes and its 'diva' W08

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3539 ... -diva-w08/
Only at the quirky and typically unpredictable Albert Park circuit have Hamilton and Bottas been relatively close to each other.

It has been noted that Hamilton's greatest struggles have come at circuits where the purple-banded Ultra Soft tyre has been used; in Australia he was rear-limited, triggering an earlier stop, allowing Ferrari to profit from the overcut, while in Russia and Monaco he was simply off the pace, unable to exploit the available grip. Hamilton's greatest pace in Monaco, comparative to rivals, came in the initial laps after switching to the Super Soft tyres.

"It's the most unusual way the car has felt in all the years I've been with the team," said Hamilton.

"We've got some seriously strong races for me; some tracks I'm generally strong at, but the issues with tyres is a bit unknown, and the next race I believe is the same tyres. It's only the Ultra Soft that has been an issue, so that's really what we'll try and understand with the team this week.

"There's so many different things we need to look into to understand why one car could make it work and one couldn't. [Maybe Bottas conducted] multiple [warm-up] laps, whether he was backing off, using the fronts more than the rears maybe, a more understeering car, oversteering car, brake balance, we need to look at these different things…"

Bottas, who suggested Hamilton struggled to find a rhythm and that small issues gradually spiralled, qualified third and raced to fourth, having been overhauled by the late-stopping Daniel Ricciardo, and battled overheating brakes at stages.

The Finn also pointed to tyre difficulties as a reason for Mercedes' lack of pace.

"We are struggling with the car [to get it] nicely balanced, especially in the very slow speed corners, struggling with the rear stability," he commented.

"When the rear is unstable you are not putting energy through the fronts either, because the fronts are just sliding. When the rear is stable the fronts are understeering slightly and it puts more temperatures through the fronts, and when you can carry more speed through the corners you just gain energy and temperature in the tyres.

"For some reason Ferrari seems to have both of their axels, front and rear, always working, [but] for us it's not really coming together, both at the same time or not all the time in the correct window, and we need to do a better job on that."



But, even accounting for a likely Vettel grid drop, the next few events will be a crucial phase of the season, and Hamilton is wary of his predicament.

"The Ferrari seems to work everywhere, so the next 14 races are going to be very, very difficult," he said.

"They have had arguably the strongest car all year, a little bit like our car last year, which just worked everywhere, but this car is not working at every single place we go to. But the more races we do, the more we learn and the stronger we get."

If Mercedes, and Hamilton, cannot apply consistency to the speed witnessed in China and Spain, the title may be lost before Formula 1's summer break…