Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

[Manoah2u]

Max' move was illegal, there is no dancing around that, it was 100% a breach of rules. It was a bit unneccesary from his part too, there was plenty of room for his left wheels to remain within the track limits and we wouldn't have had this conversation, so that makes it even sillier.

as for giving the place back, yeah, that probably would have been what needed to be done under circumstances that it wasn't the last corner.
still, despite of it all, all the cars with all 4's off the track limits were also illegal. but in all those cases, nothing happened.

anybody know who are going to be the stewards for Mexico?

[sosic2121]

It was a bit unneccesary from his part too, there was plenty of room for his left wheels to remain within the track limits and we wouldn't have had this conversation, so that makes it even sillier.

I think so too.

At least there is a lot grass in Mexico.

[Jokeri]

Loads of cars had been going wide in turn 9 and 19 and gaining advantages all race, according to Verstappen (and many of the people shouting at the screen where I was watching the race).

Do you think the 5 second penalty and loss of the podium position was fair on Verstappen or not?

My personal opinion is he was robbed of a fair racing overtaking maneuver. Kimi had lost the position.

Yes it was.

[Dazed1]

I remember Hamilton being forced off the outside in a turn many years ago with McLaren I believe and he completed the pass but was penalized, I thought VERY UNFAIRLY. Does anyone recall that or are my meds kicking in?

[NathanOlder]

Possibly Spa 08 ? Pushed off into last chicane, giving the place back then repassing in to next corner and still getting done after the race in a title fight. And these Max fans think they've been hard done by

[Phil]

Max' move was illegal, there is no dancing around that, it was 100% a breach of rules. It was a bit unneccesary from his part too, there was plenty of room for his left wheels to remain within the track limits and we wouldn't have had this conversation, so that makes it even sillier.

I guess the point I was making is that Kimi did move to the apex. He might have halted his turning into the apex momentarily, but Max did move off the track to avoid a collision and said so as much in the Thursday Press Conference (Mexico) when asked this specific question. The question therefore is not only if he gained an advantage by cutting the corner but if he was crowded legitimately off the track whilst being sufficiently alongside.

I think there is merit to the point that Kimi should have driven more defensively before heading towards those corners (by covering the inside of the corner) to cover any move Max could make. Instead, he left a rather big gap that Max aimed for when committing to the move.

[strad]

Can I go off topic to ask why I cannot vote posts in this thread either up or down?

[Manoah2u]

initially indeed there was little room, but already there he was outside the track limits. it must be said though, i think it's confusing having 2 white lines, but it's like that all weekend so not really mentionworthy.

The issue still is the same, if there was no room, there was no room. max went outside of track limits, so it's a breach of rules and as such penalizable. yet the thing is, 100% of the field went outside track limits and never had a penalty, only max did. additionally, the steward known as connely was atleast partially responsible for issueing it, and there is a history there, oddly with max. even if it wasn't about max specifically, that very same steward showed incompetence and really should have been relieved of duty last year.

nobody can deny max was doing a 'illegal move' there, and as such, is, and frankly, should be, in all sportive fairness, get a penalty, which he did.

but by not penalizing any single racer during the entire weekend for the exact same infringement, the FIA once again shows incompetence, inconsitancy, and turned it in an unfair treatment.
it would have been fair to decide 'no action taken' and leave it at that and see what comes from it. If Ferrari appeals, and it's investigated, and afterwards Max would get this penalty, i think there would be zero discussion about this only an 'unfortunate' result and being 'what it is'.

But Max said it clearly for what it is; he was taken from the podium. that's what hurts the most and was worse of it all.
It would have been so simple to put down the usual way of working; incident between car XX and car XX has been noted.
then; incident between car XX and car XX will be investigated after the race. (which essentially ended anyway in the final 2 corners).

then, post the podium ceremony, FIA would issue that a 5 second penalty has been added to Max' race results which earns him p4 instead of p3.

done, dusted, very acceptable despite still relatively unfair, but nobody got 'hurt' and fans would not have been robbed of the emotion the race had and gave in those final laps.
it would have been a satisfying result.

instead, somehow, and i can only see this as FIA's leniency towards favouring Ferrari, combined with the suspicious motivations of Connelly, there was a very sudden and hasty and prompt investigation which was the fastest decision made in all FIA's incident 'investigating' time. They'd earn a DHL 'pitstop award' for that speed. and then Max was pulled right out of backstage the podium. Embarassing him, and also embarassing Kimi and making it a very awkward situation which was completely avoidable and unneccesary.
There was a Ferrari on the podium anyway.

right after podium celebrations the announcement could have been made. People would feel a bit 'let down', and disappointed, but not robbed or stolen from, including Max.

In the end, Max did the right thing not to name the steward, and offering an apology, and that's quite frankly the end of it.
the teams will discuss it in the next meeting anyway, so that is something good.

a satisfying end would have been if the FIA would start an internal investigation regarding connelly's 'objectiveness'. Whatever the result would be, the fact they would investigate or announce that would be politically enough and rather ending the entire thing anyway. done, dusted, ended.

instead, nobody really feels satisfied, and the immediate next time something happens, and Max gets a penalty and Connelly is in the mix, we're going to have it all over again but perhaps even worse.

[Manoah2u]

Can I go off topic to ask why I cannot vote posts in this thread either up or down?

nobody can and i think that is a smart thing to do as it would only push 'fanboi' voting instead of actual 'reasonable' voting (if there really is such a thing).

[strad]

Can I go off topic to ask why I cannot vote posts in this thread either up or down?

nobody can and i think that is a smart thing to do as it would only push 'fanboi' voting instead of actual 'reasonable' voting (if there really is such a thing).

.
Thank you. It was my guess confirmed.
I agree with it perhaps being wise.

[Dazed1]

Possibly Spa 08 ? Pushed off into last chicane, giving the place back then repassing in to next corner and still getting done after the race in a title fight. And these Max fans think they've been hard done by

That sounds like it. I am still mad about that one.
The penalty for Hamilton was 25 seconds! I found a video on youtube, but not great quality.

[Manoah2u]

Possibly Spa 08 ? Pushed off into last chicane, giving the place back then repassing in to next corner and still getting done after the race in a title fight. And these Max fans think they've been hard done by

That sounds like it. I am still mad about that one.
The penalty for Hamilton was 25 seconds! I found a video on youtube, but not great quality.

I'll raise that.

Schumacher smashing into Villeneuve in 97 which cost him to lose ALL his WDC points for a SINGLE manouvre in the final race. Schumacher deserved a penalty for that 'evil' move, though i must repeat that Senna and Prost did the very same thing to eachother but Schumi did it in a rather uncivilized and non-defendable manner, but you could argue that a next race ban or DSQ from that race (despite him being out) would also have been enough.
I understood they wanted to make Michael 'feel pain' for his move to prevent him doing it again and to give an appropriate punishment.
But let's just face it; for a single move in the final race in the heat of the moment, schumacher lost ALL his WDC points for the ENTIRE season.

doesn't really sound as the 'fairest' of punishments either to me.

(and again, i am in no way defending schumi's move.)

[Andres125sx]

Yes the 5 seconds penalty was fair, he cut the track. Heck he even cut the kerb, not just the white line

Edit: picture added, should be in the thread I think


That´s what I´d have done in Max position tough, he was fighting for a podium after an awesome recovery, and finishing on the podium was too tempting. He did what racers do, tried everything. Then if he´s penalized that´s also racing, but he did all posible at his side to finish on the podium. Applause.

[Andres125sx]

Max' move was illegal, there is no dancing around that, it was 100% a breach of rules. It was a bit unneccesary from his part too, there was plenty of room for his left wheels to remain within the track limits and we wouldn't have had this conversation, so that makes it even sillier.

I disagree on the unneccesary part. That´s a very long corner and I think what Max did was doing a small straight part in the middle to be able to accelerate and ear a gap at Kimi side. Then he has to slow down to take the normal line again, but as always if not going too long he earn the line and position. But that´s only possible cutting the track, if going wider as you suggest he´d go too close to the normal line (too tangent to the corner) so he can´t accelerate without going out of the line. To do that he first need to turn a bit more than usual to close the line, take that wide kerb cutting the track while accelerating and then after placing side to side slowing down again to rejoin the line.

I think it was a brilliant last lap move, what I expect from F1 drivers

[Manoah2u]

It was brilliant, no doubt about it. There was a reason there was huge cheering, from outside and inside the cockpit.

that being said, the unneccesary move imho was that i personally think that there was just enough room to keep his left wheels within track limits. But a split-second move in high speed under pressure and adrenaline is a vastly different approach then sitting comfy in a chair and being able to talk about it after the race.

It was in line with what the F1 legend of all times said "If you don't go for a gap that is there, you're no longer racing". In other words, when a gap pops up, you go for it.

but i think there's wasted plenty enough words, breath and thought on the matter to be honest. it is what it is, it was what it was, we're gonna get some exciting stuff today too.
Enjoy while it lasts, 2017 is an absolutely phenomenal F1 season and we're closing in on the boring winter break.