Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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Manoah2u
61
Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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Yup.
And the issue is not that Verstappen wasn't off track and that the penalty itself was undeserved.
the issue is the entire field made the exact same 'cheat' yet ONLY MAX was castigated for it - and the real issue here is that it's that same steward who seemingly is not objective against Verstappen or at the very least shown he is not fit for the role.

To be honest even, the moment i saw Max take over in that corner i knew there was a 99% chance of a penalty because it was indeed 'cutting the corner'. I was then confirmed by this assumption by the Sky commentors and then saw the investigation update. I was surprised to see such a fast decision and the 5 sec penalty, robbing Max from his result.
He earned that podium fair and square, because let's face it; the rest of the field had no penalty, so if max didn't get p3 'fair', then the rest of the field neither.

It would have not been so embarassing had they implemented the penalty AFTER the podium celebrations, but because this is Ferrari Instant Assistance, there was immediate action. JUST LIKE the insanity we saw @ Baku.

There is nothing but 100% proof that the FIA is NOT objective towards Ferrari and is vastly, VASTLY favouring Ferrari.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

NL_Fer
82
Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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They should stop all this track limits BS. If they don’t want people driving in certain parts of the tracks, put high curbs, grass, gravel or bariers there.

Also i saw numerious cars go wide in turn 1, keep their foot down an rejoined the track, while holding their position.

wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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Manoah2u wrote:
24 Oct 2017, 19:38
the issue is the entire field made the exact same 'cheat' yet ONLY MAX was castigated for it
Name another driver that cut the corner to make an overtake work.

And no, going wide out of the corners isn't the same thing as reducing the length of the corner by not respecting the white lines.

The stewards have made it fairly clear that they are okay with cars going a bit wide, so in that sense everyone was in the same, not faster, boat. However, what no one did(I believe only Sainz was one who did cut a corner, but he didn't gain a position from it) was cut the corner to reduce it's length, which is a clear advantage, whereas running wide wasn't.
- and the real issue here is that it's that same steward who seemingly is not objective against Verstappen or at the very least shown he is not fit for the role.
Obviously, I mean it isn't like he cut the track with the intent to gain an advantage!
He earned that podium fair and square
No he did not.
because let's face it; the rest of the field had no penalty, so if max didn't get p3 'fair', then the rest of the field neither.
I find that such a weak argument, which isn't even true. "everyone does it, so I should be allowed to break the rules as well".
It would have not been so embarassing had they implemented the penalty AFTER the podium celebrations
They weren't on the podium, or in the room, when this penalty was given.
but because this is Ferrari Instant Assistance
Oh come on.
There is nothing but 100% proof that the FIA is NOT objective towards Ferrari and is vastly, VASTLY favouring Ferrari.
I thought we would have moved past Fuji 2008 by now.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Manoah2u
61
Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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Can't handle the truth huh? go ahead and watch Baku again.
And as for this race; Sainz, Raikkonen, Bottas.

hey, just 1 page back!

Image

some moar

Image
Image

biased ppl gonna be biased i guess.

so Indeed, come on. Fiarrari.

any other team would have seen the penalty inflicted post-race.
but nooo.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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turbof1
Moderator
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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wesley123 wrote:
24 Oct 2017, 20:36

And no, going wide out of the corners isn't the same thing as reducing the length of the corner by not respecting the white lines.
I disagree. Both cases are about going beyond the track limits to get an advantage over your opponent. The specific advantage is different, less meters to travel vs a higher speed, but they should be treated equally. Else anybody can treat a hairpin corner like a medium or perhaps even as a high speed corner.

For the record: the image I provided and Manoah copied does not tell the whole picture as the car iin front did not got overtaken. Rather, I posted it to show the very poor attitude towards track limits.
#AeroFrodo

NL_Fer
82
Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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Look at the official race highlights. Lap 1, Vettel cuts off Hamilton after turn 1 and goes wide . Is that not gaining an advantage? Bottas is overtaken by Max and goes wide, gains momentum by being able to keep his foot down and rejoins the track in front. Is this not gaining an advantage.?

n_anirudh
28
Joined: 25 Jul 2008, 02:43

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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Edited
Last edited by n_anirudh on 26 Oct 2017, 12:35, edited 1 time in total.

froggy
5
Joined: 11 Apr 2012, 23:37

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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NL_Fer wrote:
24 Oct 2017, 19:43
They should stop all this track limits BS. If they don’t want people driving in certain parts of the tracks, put high curbs, grass, gravel or bariers there.
AMEN!

wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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turbof1 wrote:
24 Oct 2017, 21:08
wesley123 wrote:
24 Oct 2017, 20:36

And no, going wide out of the corners isn't the same thing as reducing the length of the corner by not respecting the white lines.
I disagree. Both cases are about going beyond the track limits to get an advantage over your opponent. The specific advantage is different, less meters to travel vs a higher speed, but they should be treated equally. Else anybody can treat a hairpin corner like a medium or perhaps even as a high speed corner.

For the record: the image I provided and Manoah copied does not tell the whole picture as the car iin front did not got overtaken. Rather, I posted it to show the very poor attitude towards track limits.
I'm not certain, but I do not feel the wider exit gave much, if any, gain. They'll be off-line mostly, and out of traction zones they would have had less grip as they would be full on the kerbs.

I do think they should be treated equally as well, but the stewards were fairly liberal on the corner exits, T19 especially, and in that sense everyone was in the same boat of being allowed to use that space, and thus in effect no one made any gain or deficit.

A lot of the drivers going wide involved overtaking, and being liberal really did allow more aggressive racing.

In Max case he had no business cutting the corner. He essentially went for a gap that realistically didn't exist, and had enough room around him on the left to keep two wheels on the asphalt. This imo gives the suggestion that he intended to cut the corner to overtake Raikkonen, where he had sufficient pace to attempt an overtake in the last two corners. It wasn't based on luck, it was based on everything that Max himself decided to do. I do think that this situation, and Max' previous aggressive behavior on track, did weigh heavily in the decision to penalize him.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

wesley123
204
Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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Manoah2u wrote:
24 Oct 2017, 20:43
Can't handle the truth huh? go ahead and watch Baku again.
Sure, it couldn't possibly be anything else!
And as for this race; Sainz, Raikkonen, Bottas.
I am aware of these events. Like said; the race stewards were liberal on running wide out of corners, everyone was in the same boat here. And Sainz action didn't result in an overtake, which in turn means he didn't gain an advantage.


biased ppl gonna be biased i guess.
lmao.
any other team would have seen the penalty inflicted post-race.
but nooo.
Based on? To be honest, many of the accusations seem to be based on the fact that they can't deal with Max' getting penalized for breaking the rules for some reason.

And why would they bias Ferrari? The issue with that reasoning is that giving Raikkonen 3rd or 4th makes no difference, thus giving Ferrari any benefit is completely pointless. All great that you think that is being the case, but there is no point to that being applicable here.

I think it is time people have to accept that their favorite driver isn't above the law.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

marmer
1
Joined: 21 Apr 2017, 06:48

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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sosic2121 wrote:
marmer wrote:
24 Oct 2017, 10:15
sosic2121 wrote: Just rubbish!
Max left the track there. What was Bottas going to do?!
Moves like that are killing racing, no matter who done it!
No he stayed on the track all 4 wheels where not off the circuit. Re watch the overtake
So he was "only" 190cm off, and still 10cm in. where should then Bottas go?
If you read my point bottas would not have been there if he hadn't locked up on entry. He wouldn't have made the apex regardless of max at the speed he was going. He might have kept it on the road but by locking up it proves he should have gone slower which would have allowed max to get the move completed without issue. Max took the tightest line quicker than bottas took a wider line and didn't lock his wheels up he was the one in control of his car. Bottas should have realised sooner and bailed out instead kept his foot in risking damage to the underside of his car.

Also defending was fairly pointless for him anyway he was going so much slower than max and was also not catching Kimi so max would have got past at other point eventually.

sosic2121
13
Joined: 08 Jun 2016, 12:14

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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NL_Fer wrote:
24 Oct 2017, 21:31
Look at the official race highlights. Lap 1, Vettel cuts off Hamilton after turn 1 and goes wide . Is that not gaining an advantage? Bottas is overtaken by Max and goes wide, gains momentum by being able to keep his foot down and rejoins the track in front. Is this not gaining an advantage.?
Vettel did gain advantage, Bottas was pushed wide.

sosic2121
13
Joined: 08 Jun 2016, 12:14

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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marmer wrote:
24 Oct 2017, 22:48
sosic2121 wrote:
marmer wrote:
24 Oct 2017, 10:15
No he stayed on the track all 4 wheels where not off the circuit. Re watch the overtake
So he was "only" 190cm off, and still 10cm in. where should then Bottas go?
If you read my point bottas would not have been there if he hadn't locked up on entry. He wouldn't have made the apex regardless of max at the speed he was going. He might have kept it on the road but by locking up it proves he should have gone slower which would have allowed max to get the move completed without issue. Max took the tightest line quicker than bottas took a wider line and didn't lock his wheels up he was the one in control of his car. Bottas should have realised sooner and bailed out instead kept his foot in risking damage to the underside of his car.

Also defending was fairly pointless for him anyway he was going so much slower than max and was also not catching Kimi so max would have got past at other point eventually.
IMO you are simply wrong. Max carried way to much speed into that corner, went wide and pushed Bottas off.
I think this kind of overtake needs to be punished, no matter who done.
It is killing racing.

Also, I believe everyone needs to respect track limits all the time!

Manoah2u
61
Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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*cough cough* SENNA *cough cough*

would anybody here ever claim Senna killed racing? don't think so.

FIA's inconsistancy is killing racing.
FIA's favouring Ferrari is killing racing.
FIA's silly tracks is killing racing.
FIA's embarassing steward Connelly is killing racing.
FIA's charlie whiting is killing racing.

guess what the above 5 have in common: FIA is killing racing.

A little reminder.
FERRARI's Vettel in race 1 was way outside of the track starting 'box'. UNPENALIZED.
FERRARI's Vettel in baku delibaretly slammed into Hamilton. INSUFFICIENTLY PENALIZED
FERRARI's Vettel then under immense pressure got a tribunal hearing. UNPENALIZED
FERRARI's Kimi Raikkonen went outside track limits several times during the USA GP UNPENALIZED
FERRARI's Vettel in Mexico 2016 was 'HASTELY' thrown at the podium [and Max quickly removed backstage] despite his driving. PENALIZED FAR LATER*
FERRARI's Kimi Raikkonen in USA GP 2017 was HASTELY thrown at the podium [and Max quickly removed] DESPITE NORMALLY VERDICT COMES POST-GP

* same steward responsible as in USA 2017. coincidence? NO.

Let's just think about it for one more time.

Mexico 2016 GP. Conelly same steward was responsible for getting Max Verstappen OFF the podium and giving him a 10-second penalty SO A FERRARI DRIVER CAN GET ON THE PODIUM. That very same ferrari driver then, way after the race, was handed out a deserving penalty and got a 10-sec penalty aswell. this has been seen in the same moment max was judged.. but Daniel Ricciardo was NOT hasted on to the podium in the way FERRARI's vettel was quickly thrown on the podium.

USA 2017 GP. Conelly SAME STEWARD was responsible for getting Max Verstappen OFF the podium AGAIN and giving him a 5-second penalty in the last SECONDS of the GP in the LAST LAP, SO A FERRARI DRIVER CAN GET ON THE PODIUM. Normally, such an incident is first NOTED. Then, gets UNDER INVESTIGATION. then, when all has been judged, a VERDICT is given. this does NOT ever happen in the last SECONDS after nearly the last corner of a GP.
this will happen POST-RACE in EVERY single circumstance, exactly like how VETTEL was penalized AFTER the race in Mexico 2016. YET, a penalty was given whilst Max
was backstage and A FERARRI DRIVER was hastedly put on podium.

there is no dancing around it, there is no denying it, this is the d*mn fact.

FIA undeniably favours FERRARI.

i know there are blunt-headed pink glasses wearing people that can not see and don't want to see any critisims about the reds, and can only point to others and it's never ferrari.
but even stevie wonder can see how unfair and biased FIA's decision was.

The problem is corruption in the FIA, and the biggest crook of them all is Charlie Whiting.
If we ever want to see F1 advance and be great again, he needs to go, just like Bernie HAD to go.
additionally, Connelly already had to be removed from position after last year's Japan embarassment.

it's a complete facade.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

reaper663
0
Joined: 29 Apr 2017, 16:51

Re: Was Verstappen's 5 Second Penalty Fair?

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Manoah2u wrote:
25 Oct 2017, 10:22
*cough cough* SENNA *cough cough*

would anybody here ever claim Senna killed racing? don't think so.

FIA's inconsistancy is killing racing.
FIA's favouring Ferrari is killing racing.
FIA's silly tracks is killing racing.
FIA's embarassing steward Connelly is killing racing.
FIA's charlie whiting is killing racing.

guess what the above 5 have in common: FIA is killing racing.

A little reminder.
FERRARI's Vettel in race 1 was way outside of the track starting 'box'. UNPENALIZED.
FERRARI's Vettel in baku delibaretly slammed into Hamilton. INSUFFICIENTLY PENALIZED
FERRARI's Vettel then under immense pressure got a tribunal hearing. UNPENALIZED
FERRARI's Kimi Raikkonen went outside track limits several times during the USA GP UNPENALIZED
FERRARI's Vettel in Mexico 2016 was 'HASTELY' thrown at the podium [and Max quickly removed backstage] despite his driving. PENALIZED FAR LATER*
FERRARI's Kimi Raikkonen in USA GP 2017 was HASTELY thrown at the podium [and Max quickly removed] DESPITE NORMALLY VERDICT COMES POST-GP

* same steward responsible as in USA 2017. coincidence? NO.

Let's just think about it for one more time.

Mexico 2016 GP. Conelly same steward was responsible for getting Max Verstappen OFF the podium and giving him a 10-second penalty SO A FERRARI DRIVER CAN GET ON THE PODIUM. That very same ferrari driver then, way after the race, was handed out a deserving penalty and got a 10-sec penalty aswell. this has been seen in the same moment max was judged.. but Daniel Ricciardo was NOT hasted on to the podium in the way FERRARI's vettel was quickly thrown on the podium.

USA 2017 GP. Conelly SAME STEWARD was responsible for getting Max Verstappen OFF the podium AGAIN and giving him a 5-second penalty in the last SECONDS of the GP in the LAST LAP, SO A FERRARI DRIVER CAN GET ON THE PODIUM. Normally, such an incident is first NOTED. Then, gets UNDER INVESTIGATION. then, when all has been judged, a VERDICT is given. this does NOT ever happen in the last SECONDS after nearly the last corner of a GP.
this will happen POST-RACE in EVERY single circumstance, exactly like how VETTEL was penalized AFTER the race in Mexico 2016. YET, a penalty was given whilst Max
was backstage and A FERARRI DRIVER was hastedly put on podium.

there is no dancing around it, there is no denying it, this is the d*mn fact.

FIA undeniably favours FERRARI.

i know there are blunt-headed pink glasses wearing people that can not see and don't want to see any critisims about the reds, and can only point to others and it's never ferrari.
but even stevie wonder can see how unfair and biased FIA's decision was.

The problem is corruption in the FIA, and the biggest crook of them all is Charlie Whiting.
If we ever want to see F1 advance and be great again, he needs to go, just like Bernie HAD to go.
additionally, Connelly already had to be removed from position after last year's Japan embarassment.

it's a complete facade.
China, totally legal, vettel knew the rules and kept it legal.
Baku sufficiently penalised but looked worse due to Hamilton's problem.
After: penalty points so 3 more would mean race ban.

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